200g "Drop Off Reef" tank in the works. Need opinions.

[97dezertranger]

Well I decided to see what you guys think about a new build I wanna start. I havent been on here very long but Ive met a few of you guys within the last few months and few other guys helped me in getting some equipment I was looking for. Figured this would be a good oppurtunity to introduce myself and say Hi. I know theres a reef club that alot of you guys meet up at ,that I wish I could go to but havent had the chance to go to one just yet.

Anyway heres kinda what ive been thinking up in my head. Its mainly on paper as Im in the works with learning solidworks. I have a few questions regarding flow in a "drop reef". Im leaning towards doing a 'closed loop' using Oceans Motions 4 way with a reeflo dart. I have not had a tank with closed loop before but I really like the idea of drilling two intakes on the back of the tank and placing the returns in the bottom . I think this will help aid in providing flow to the odd dropped part of the tank but am unsure if I am thinking this out correctly? If anyone has experience with providing good flow to that odd dropped part of the tank Id love to hear it. Or even if you dont have any experience with drop tanks and you know about closed loops and have used them in the past Id like to hear with what worked for you and what didnt. Im also a little concerned with having holes on the bottom of the tank..Is there any precautions you guys use to make this safer?

I am also planning on building the stand with steel 2x2 probably gonna be 11ga and making a custom hickory or oak fasad that wraps around the steel stand and built in steel hood. Also Im gonna leave a list of what Im planning to use so let me know if you have any good or bad experience with any of the companys or if im making it to over kill.

Unfortunetly Im having a spine fusion on monday so most of these plans are all on hold for a little while. Im planning to atleast order all my parts so there ready to go. Aswell as getting the tank made up.I do all my own welding since ive been doing it since I was really young and I own all the tools so I figure it would be worth my money and time to make it exactly how I want. Im thinking of going acrylic even though I know Im gonna catch some heat for that. I really love the look of the crytal clear glass but I just dont have the trust in it. I havent spoke to any acrylic builders just yet about this. So it might not even be possible. I was thinking of talking with advanced acrylics about it next week to see if its doable.

I will aslo use this thread to post pictures as I progress. Which may be sooner then I think. Because if it comes down to just waiting for my health to be able to build the stand. Ill prolly have to drag one of my buddys up to my house to get it all tacked up so all I have to do is weld it and send it out to powdercoat.

Heres my list so far but Id love to hear any opinions if Im heading the wrong direction with any of the parts.

-200gallon ish "Drop Tank"
-Steel stand and canopy
-x4 Kessil 360
-x8 60" T-5 Retrofit Setup
-60" advanced acrylic sump/fuge
-x2 Reeflo Dart (1 return, 1 closed loop)
-57w Aqua UV
-Protetin Skimmer (looking for opinions)
-Calcium Reactor (thinking Life Reef, but open to suggestions)
-Neptune Apex Controller
- GFO/Carbon Media Reactor (Next Reef MR1)
-Oceans Motions

Well let me know what any of you guys think. I believe im heading in the right direction but let me know if you have a different opinion. I have plenty of time to research and get my ducks in a row ahead of time. Since im gonna spend the next couple months in a recliner.

 

[slief]

Personally, I'd ditch the dart closed loop and ocean motion and add some Tunze's or Vortech's. You will get more flow than the dart while also reducing heat transfer and saving a lot of power. You will also gain Apex controllability so you can generate surges or waves. I've been controlling my Tunze's from my Apex for years now and let me tell you.. They kick a$$ and they are damn near bulletproof.. Run the UV off the return pump via a manifold. As for skimmers I'm partial to Bubble King myself but ATB is also a great option.

 

[97dezertranger]

Ok yeah vortechs were plan B. I just wasnt sure if I wanted to have pumps mounted all over the tank. I have one mp10 on my 75g and Im pretty impressed with it and all the random modes it can create. I wonder if I were to use one mp40 on the middle of the dropped side and one mp10 a little lower if it would help eliminate a dead spot in the dropped part of the tank. I dont have any experience with the bigger 40 or 60 pumps but if they fan out to a wider range and reach the lower part I suppose just one pump would work well on that side. The whole idea of the dropped tank is still just an idea. I may very well just scratch the idea and go for a standard dimmension if turns out to be a huge amount of money more to make it all work correctly. You definately have me thinking about the vortechs and how I can make it all work though. Cost wise probably would be about the same aswell.

 

[billyzbear]

I agree with above.
Maybe a Seaswirl on the return.
Look in the DIY section on RC to see how others built thier stands. Like, having bolts on the legs so you can adjust the hieght.
Have fun

 

[CHASDB]

I had a 120 with a closed loop, dart and OM 4 way valve. Had a few different drums. I had a center raised intake and returns in each corner. It dose require a union ball valve on intake and each return so you can remove it and do maintenance on the drum or pump. I used spa flex to add some flexibility and reduce pump vibration. I would cringe whenever I heard a clicking noise and snoticed the magnet drive were slipping on the drum. I'd have to shut off all the valves, use a shop vac and open the drain on the pump and suck up the water as the pipes drained. Then clean the sand or piece of shell or whatever that stopped it from rotating and replenish the lost water. It was nice since the tank was visable on 3 sides no pumps or powerheads, but I have learned to like the ease of maintenance on powerheads and the ability to move them as corals grow in. I still have the diamond bits to drill 2" and 1" bulkheads if your interested.

 

[97dezertranger]

Hamm that's definately good info to know. I've read the same thing from other forums about possible sand getting in the drum and causing the drum not too turn. I wonder if there wouldn't be a way to hook up some sort of sediment filter on the intake pipes to help eliminate the sand getting to the ocean motions. Just not sure how well the pump would like a filter on the intake. May not work well with the pump but it may be worth a try if I decide to stick with the closed loop system. I'm still doing research on doing it. I'm curious how was your water flow with the dart. I've also considered replacing the dart and instead using a Reeflo pressure pump like the yellowtail. I've read a few forums where a few people stated the dart didn't quite have enough water pressure coming out of the returns to make it an effective setup.

 

[97dezertranger]

Well I am finally just about ready to start getting this system going. I am still waiting on a quote for the "drop" tank and sump, but am starting to lean towards just going with a standard 180g or 210g tank from advanced acrylics along with there alpha series sump. Anyway I will finally be able to get going on this project within the next week or two so I really wanna start to atleast get a list going of the exact parts I am gonna be building this with while I am waiting to see if the custom tank is gonna be in the budget or not. I

Ive also decided to go with a closed loop system with the addition of using a pair of mp40qd to alternate between the two. I do however have a question for any of the guys that have used a closed loop with the reeflo dart gold or hammerhead gold if there was a very big difference in there power bill with running it. Obviously it will be somewhat higher. But how long did you run it for each day total and if your comfortable telling about how much did it seem to raise your bill? I have a 2nd option aswell I just happened to stumble upon the new Red Dragon Speedy 230w pump that seemed to of just been released not to long ago. Im sure theres a few people on here that have thought the same thing with using one of these pumps to drive there closed loop. It has a pretty hefty price tag but considering the power savings of the reeflo it would pretty much pay for itself pretty quickly.

Any thoughts on using one of these pumps for a OM closed loop? Or has anyone used there smaller pump on there closed loop? Any advice is appreciated

 

[Crusty Old Shellback]

I ran an OM 4 way on a C/L with a barracuda pump. I also had a second closed loop with a hammerhead pump. with a swimming pool filter in line with it. I ran a Dart form my return. This was on a 400G tank.

I now have a dart return and no C/L systems. Running 10 Korillia Pumps on a Red Sea pro wavemaker is a whole lot cheaper and easier. 15K GPH and pulling less than 100 Watts. The Hammerhead and Barracuda were pulling over 600 watts and flow was around 9K GPH. I dropped my power bill by about $100 a month with this change alone.

While the OM 4 way was awesome, and I had it set up so that I got a nice wave of water across the top of the tank at times, it was a pain. After about 5 years of running it, the rotating pieces finally wore thru and leaked water everywhere under the tank. That was the main reason for removing it.

 

[cali_reef]

I would skip the close loop and go with either Tunze or Vortec power heads if you want controllability. A gyre pump is also an option if you can forgo the controlability. I recently pulled out a Tunze wave box and two Tunze pumps from one end of my tank and replaced them with a single gyre pump, awesome flow but no control via Apex.

I have two OM 4ways with a few different drums for sale if you are set on a CL and don't mind dealing with the extra maintenance. It is a cleaner look.

 

[USAFReefer]

I have to agree with the others on the closed loop. I have one that I no longer use and the reasons are 1. Heat, it really heats up the water 2. Power bill, holy cow does it raise the power bill for the tank, almost double my power usage for the whole tank just turning on the CL pump. 3. Noise - CL pump was good for about a year, but after that started to get louder and louder till I couldn't take it anymore (wasn't a high quality pump, Gen-X). Replaced it with a Reeflo Blowhole, noise went down, but power bill and heat transfer actually went up to the point my chiller was kicking on daily, which really raised the power bill.

Today I no longer use the CL and just use an XF-150 and some MP's and I am much happier. I went the CL route because I didn't want pumps/wires in the tank, but after a couple years of the CL, I will probably never go that route again. Even with a new DC controllable pump one still has one big point of failure so a second pump should be purchased as a spare for when the inevitable happens or the tank will suffer a while until a new pump is put in if it is your main source of flow.

 

[dodgerblew]

Never have done a closed loop so I have no opinion.

Just wanted to say hey and lyk I'm in West Palmdale so if you run into needing anything lmk and if I can help I will. Hope the fusion went well. Takes a long time to heal...Be careful

 

[pciscott]

I have 2 closed loops on my 400 and there are precautions to plumbing a closed loop system with quality of bulk heads and the type of pump you choose. I run a large Reeflo for my return, but I do not like pumps with seals that can go out and drain your tank. I am purchasing the Royal exclusive 230 watt Speedy pumps in fact getting one of the first ones in the country today at Rap Orlando. Expensive but been running 2 Red Dragon 12 pumps for 5 years without a problem. The Oceans Motions does need maintenance and I have had to change gear drive motor after 3 years. The clicking sound is a major pain, but I do have union ball valves to get into easier to service. My unit did this several times the first 6 months, but not in last 2 years so wear will clearance over time, but I have yet to experience a hole worn in it. Things to look forward to. If you would like to check out my setup for ideas you are welcome to come by. A closed loop does require more maintenance, more power, and more money over powerheads, but I still would run a closed loop. Not having powerheads to clean, hear, or take up valuable real estate is worth all the downfalls to me.

The new RD230 Speedy is also going to let you run less power at night, and control with Apex. I think these 2 pumps on my closed loop will save me $75 per month in electric.

Anyway as stated above keeping it simple has merrits, and if I ever do loose the tank water out of my closed loop I may find a new opinion Good luck.

 

[97dezertranger]

Well I think I am gonna stick to my guns with the closed loop at this point. There were alot of good points brought up aswell as suggestions that I greatly appreciate. At this point I am still just very curious as to see how it will perform. To pciscott your point about not using a external sealed pump is one I wouldve overlooked if you didnt bring it up. I am glad you did though because I think it will make my overall decision for which pump to go with much easier. I am definatley gonna scrap the reeflo idea and go with the 230v speedy. Im guessing its gonna take a little while longer for them to be available in the US but I think it will be well worth the wait. I do have one other question for the guys running a CL. So my estimated tank length at this time is 72"x24x24 its not set in stone just yet but thats pretty close to the size. Should I be considering using two of the Oceans Motions units on that size tank. I was thinking of just doing one but am reading alot of mixed reviews.

1.Couple other questions I have was If anyone has run any of the water blaster pumps for there closed loop system. There larger pumps seem like they would put out enough GPH with there largest pump getting close to 5000gph? Or is there another pump that I am missing that alot of people use on there CL.

2.My next question is Oceans Motions my only option for a random flow diverter wave maker. Or is there another company out there that offer a similar setup?

3. Does anyone have any other tank builders they would recommend for building a "drop" tank. I have a email in with advanced acrylics but havent heard anything back yet. But I wouldnt mind getting two or three builders quotes to compare two. I was original planning to have it built in acrylic but im not opposed to having it built in glass either.

Thanks again in advance.

 

[97dezertranger]

Never have done a closed loop so I have no opinion.

Just wanted to say hey and lyk I'm in West Palmdale so if you run into needing anything lmk and if I can help I will. Hope the fusion went well. Takes a long time to heal...Be careful

Thanks dodgerblew Its good to know theres a few people up here. I am in the Lake Hughes/Lake Elezibeth area. I will let you know if I need any help once I get this project up and going. I really appreciate the offer. And the fusion went good, now I just have to sit around and wait till its completely fused.

 

[maxxII]

I've run closed loop aquariums with an OceansMotions and with a WavySea, and I've moved onto to Tunze Streams and now Vortechs.

The reason for that is so that I dont have my circulation and flow relying on one thing.
The pump will never die or need maintenance when you have the time and the money to replace it. Understand that rule.

Nothing will ever go wrong in your reef tank when you have time and the ability/finances to fix it.

However, there are ways to mitigate that.

Multiple pumps on a reef tank for flow means redundancy.
Having a back up/spare pump in the box ready to go means that when your pump does go bad, you can swap the bad one out quickly....as long as you've placed your pump conveniently and have ball valves and unions in the right places.

Pumps for closed loops tend to use more energy and cost as much or more as powerheads like Tunzes or Vortechs. Depending on the pump used, they also add significant heat to the system.

Depending on where you are located and where your reef is located in your house, this could be something to consider.

Additionally, the pumps used to run a closed loop tend to be noisier than power heads.

Final consideration is growth & deposits building up in the closed loop. You will get deposits and some form of animal growth inside your closed loop plumbing.

Not a big deal, but something else to consider and plan for...how will break down the plumbing to clean/soak it? What will your tank do for flow while this is happening? Again, ball valves and unions will be required for this as well.

To be fair, the build up and growth wont be so bad or extreme that it will need to be cleaned out every year, but at least once every 5 years or so....unless you want to cut it off and start fresh with the closed plumbing again.


All of this is surmountable, but its additional things to consider.

I'm looking forward to your build.

 

[chrislkh]

I heard some good review for Maxspect Gyre Generator, but I do not any experience with it.

 

[97dezertranger]

I appreciate the input maxII definately a good thought on having to clean all the plumbing every couple years. I dont think it will be too big of an issue as long as I plan out my plumbing with unions and valves in the correct places. At the very least I will need valves to be able to service the OM 4 way every 6 months or so aswell as take a look at the pump. As far as having a spare pump on hand is definately another good idea to take into consideration and definately another expense to have a spare on hand.. I think I would purchase a spare pump aswell as a spare OM 4way at some point just for that rainy day.


Does anyone have a tank builder they would recommend. Ive sent two emails to the first builder I was gonna use with no response...

 

[805reef]

I appreciate the input maxII definately a good thought on having to clean all the plumbing every couple years. I dont think it will be too big of an issue as long as I plan out my plumbing with unions and valves in the correct places. At the very least I will need valves to be able to service the OM 4 way every 6 months or so aswell as take a look at the pump. As far as having a spare pump on hand is definately another good idea to take into consideration and definately another expense to have a spare on hand.. I think I would purchase a spare pump aswell as a spare OM 4way at some point just for that rainy day.


Does anyone have a tank builder they would recommend. Ive sent two emails to the first builder I was gonna use with no response...

Just curious, who was the builder you were planning on using? I am working with Precision Aquariums on a tank build and they have been super busy gearing up for MAX this weekend. Other builders may be in the same situation.

 

[97dezertranger]

Just curious, who was the builder you were planning on using? I am working with Precision Aquariums on a tank build and they have been super busy gearing up for MAX this weekend. Other builders may be in the same situation.

Yeah I would agree and I understand alot of planning goes into these shows for them. But I sent an email to them almost a week and a half ago maybe even 2 weeks ago. Thanks for the heads up on MAX I wasnt planning on going but I am going a little crazy being stuck in the house for so long since my surgery might take the oppurtunity to go check it out who knows might even find a builder there that can get the ball rolling on the tank.

 

[805reef]

Yeah I would agree and I understand alot of planning goes into these shows for them. But I sent an email to them almost a week and a half ago maybe even 2 weeks ago. Thanks for the heads up on MAX I wasnt planning on going but I am going a little crazy being stuck in the house for so long since my surgery might take the oppurtunity to go check it out who knows might even find a builder there that can get the ball rolling on the tank.

Did you try to contact them using the contact form on the website? Or through direct email?