Acartia tonsa (Calanoid Copepod) Pictures!

[mwp]

Well, at least SOMETHING is going right these days. The Acartia tonsa starter culture has produced a nice "thick" culture that I'll probably have to split off or something. One big piece of advice that Luis suggested was to rear them at a SG of 1.010...I'm sure with the addition of phytoplankton (that's grown around 1.023-25) that the culture is at least at 1.015-18 right now...will have to remember to dilute and keep them at this truly brackish state.

Anyway, here's a bunch of QX5 shots, including a couple shots that may be showing early stages (nauplii / copepodites), shot at 10X, 60X and 200X

Again, I owe Luis a big thanks for helping me locate the starter eggs, so LUIS, THANKS! Obviously I'd like to spread these around in the future just in case I ever need a back-up source to start up (in the event of a crash). Those of you who've already gotten phyto / SS from me, consider yourselves first in line if interested - as you know, Saltwater Life Food cultures can be really hard to come by!

Matt

 

[G_melacara]

Nice culture Matt! Do you have to chill your culture water at all? I might be crazy or thinking of a different Acartia species but I thought that they were a temperate species.
Good luck!

Chris

 

[mwp]

Well Chris, I'm running ALL my cultures at room temperature, which during the winter is flucuating between 72F and 64F, but mostly around 68F.

FWIW,

Matt

 

[G_melacara]

So . . . I'm also curious if you are planning to feed adults and nauplii to your fry or if you are going to isolate the nauplii? And if you do isolate the naups how do you plan to do it? Sorry about all the questions but the whole topic of feeding copepod nauplii is exciting stuff in the world of marine fish breeding and I would love to hear how your cultures work out and what kinds of system you set up for them.

Chris

 

[mwp]

Well, right now the plan is more basic. I tend to find myself maintaining my cultures less as a direct source of feed, and more as a "seed" for greenwater larval culturing.

Currently 1 10 gallon tank has a ton of copepods of various types as well as our GBG larvae. The 2nd 10 gallon didn't get larval clownfish last night as I had hoped, so I've filled it with 2 gallons clean saltwater, mabye 10% of the A. tonsa culture, and 1L of T-Iso. It's going to get a bit more phyto AND clean water this afternoon, as well as some SS Rotifers - enough to cover the heater anyways. I'll let the tank run a little while to see what develops, and I may "seed" the 2nd 10 gallon tank with some rots and copepods from the first. Basically, I'm looking to do some sort of green-water approach with rotifers AND copepods, and into that will go newly hatched Synchiropus larvae and hopefully they'll survive for a change

Matt

 

[mwp]

BTW, if anyone is interested, starter cultures can be obtained in the US through SHS - http://www.seahorsesource.com/cgi-bin/shop/detail.cgi?id=201143

I'm going to keep posting some notes on this culture as I work with it more - Luis gave me a basic primer, and I have a few other references to go off of as well.

Let's hope these guys do the trick for the mandarins!

Matt

 

[Kathy55g]

So Matt, my friend, when you culture these rots and pods for days before adding newly hatched fish, what is the ammonia like in the culture tank just before you add the newbies? I would guess it is higher than the newly hatched fish need.

I feel very strongly that it is just wrong to expect newly hatched larvae to survive in a rotifer culture tank.

The reason the rest of us start with a "sterile" tank is to attempt to keep ammonia and other waste products down in the delicate first days of the larval life (Hoff). Sure they build up when the rotifers that don't get eaten and multiply in the tank, but at least the tank starts out at 0 ammonia, and 0 waste products, and as much oxygen as the water will hold. It takes a couple of days for the pollution to rise to dangerous levels.

Rotifers empty their guts every 4 hours. That's 6 rot poops per rot per day, times 10 rots per ml times 3875 ml per gallon times 10 gallons is 2.325 million rot poops per day, not to mention urine, and oxygen depletion, with more oxygen depletion at night when the phyto starts to take it up. And think what happens to the water chemistry?

One cannot help think that you are putting your delicate larvae into a polluted tank. Sure it contains food, but NO MORE FOOD than if you waited until morning, and added the rinsed food and phyto minus all that pollution. Rotifers are filthy creatures! They can thrive in rather harsh conditions, but the new larvae cannot.

In addition, if you start with parent tank water, or new saltwater to match the parent tank, you have no acclimation losses. You dump the larvae into the tank, and go to bed. It is that simple. They can't eat in the dark, they need their rest after breaking out of the egg and learning to swim, and they don't need food polluting their tank during this time.

Next morning wake up to a tank full of swimming larvae. Measure out enough rotifers to bring the tank's concentration to 10 rots per ml, rinse and add. Pour in enough live nannochloropsis to tint the water green and go to work. THIS IS WHAT THEY MEAN BY GREENWATER TECHNIQUE. You will come home to fat bellied larvae! Continue to feed and siphon and lower salinity (Wilkerson). After a few days, add a seasoned sponge filter, or put them on a system that can remove the ammonia. Simple.

can you tell I feel strongly about this? FWIW.
Your friend,
K

 

[danfrith]

Well put Kathy.

 

[aomont]

I agree in part with Kathy and with you Matt.
This thing of having phyto and zooplankton together in the tank you put fish larvae is not the greenwater technique. More like mesocosm except for the rapid growing rotifer population.

I think you should go with different copepods and phyto but not sure about the rots, maybe they should be added when larvae grows a little. But, definetly, it is a good idea as its been done to rear some dificult to raise pelagic spawners larvae !!!!
It´s promissing but postpone the rots !

Anderson.

 

[mwp]

Kathy, you raise some very valid points that I don't discount. However, if the phyto is kept at the appropriate levels, ammonia should be used by the phyto (remember, I'm dealing with LIVING cultures, not pastes/gels etc.).

Keeping the water green enough can have a stablizing effect (citation here ). Ammonia = phyto food and the tanks are well lit, at least enough to keep the phyto producting. Another issue is that with most ammonia testing, the chemicals themselves can cause phyto to rupture, releaseing chemicals that aren't actually present in the water at that level (i.e. phosphate etc.).

AND, here's the kicker, not surprisingly I don't have the space to keep as many and as large of cultures as I'd like...so sometimes the larval tanks have to pull double duty.

But here's another thought...when an expected hatch is to occur, I could just as easily drain the larval "soup" and replace with parental water, seiving the life in the process and returning it to the tank.

Also, I'm working off some advice that I'm not quite at liberty to share. Let's just say someone else whom I trust told me to do it this way

My other final observation is the current GBG batch. I know I cited that there were at least 10-20 larvae around...and that's only what I could count. This evening the tank has further cleared and there are easily 50-100 GBG's in the tank. There's copepods up the wazoo too (copepods are thought to help maintain water quality as well as feed the larvae, as the copepods not only feed on algae but also detritus).

So there's my rebuttle Kathy. Thoughts?

Matt

 

[mwp]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8541229#post8541229 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aomont
I agree in part with Kathy and with you Matt.
This thing of having phyto and zooplankton together in the tank you put fish larvae is not the greenwater technique. More like mesocosm except for the rapid growing rotifer population.

I think you should go with different copepods and phyto but not sure about the rots, maybe they should be added when larvae grows a little. But, definetly, it is a good idea as its been done to rear some dificult to raise pelagic spawners larvae !!!!
It´s promissing but postpone the rots !

Anderson.

Anderson & Kathy, the issue on the Rots is that I'm dealing with those pesky SS rots. I strained a 2 L culture and maybe got a couple hundred...they're just terribly difficult to keep going strong without crashing

Matt

 

[aomont]

Although I said rots "could" not be a good idea, I´m anxious to see the mandarin in that soup !
The GBG are in that mix, aren´t they ?
Anderson.

 

[mwp]

Yes, the GBG are in a big mix that's heavy on copepods. It was started with SS-Strain and around day 5 L-Strain started getting added in. Hard to say exactly what all the variety is now...there's just 'oodles' of life. I did add a small number of Acartia tonsa to the GBG larval tank...figured at worst they'll get eaten outright, but at best, they'll flourish there as well, further helping things along.

Yes, perhaps a "mini-ecosystem" of sorts, not so much just Rotifers and Nannochloropsis.

Matt

 

[Kathy55g]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8541254#post8541254 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mwp
M: Kathy, you raise some very valid points that I don't discount.

K: Really?

M: However, if the phyto is kept at the appropriate levels, ammonia should be used by the phyto (remember, I'm dealing with LIVING cultures, not pastes/gels etc.).

K:Yes phyto will take up some ammonia, but how much? Do you really know that it takes care of it completely? When you feed your phyto cultures, you use a fertilizer that is more than ammonia. There are vitamins and other substances not found in pod poop, I'd speculate. Do you want your larvae eating less than nutritious phyto/pods?

M: Keeping the water green enough can have a stablizing effect (citation here ). Ammonia = phyto food and the tanks are well lit, at least enough to keep the phyto producting. Another issue is that with most ammonia testing, the chemicals themselves can cause phyto to rupture, releaseing chemicals that aren't actually present in the water at that level (i.e. phosphate etc.).

K: From what I've read on your logs, you have trouble keeping these teeming tanks green. They are sometimes going clear on you. I would guess there is not a lot of phyto growth going on. Mostly phyto comsumption, and when you have consumption, you have poop.

M: AND, here's the kicker, not surprisingly I don't have the space to keep as many and as large of cultures as I'd like...so sometimes the larval tanks have to pull double duty.

K: :eek1:

M: But here's another thought...when an expected hatch is to occur, I could just as easily drain the larval "soup" and replace with parental water, seiving the life in the process and returning it to the tank.

K: APPLAUSE!!!!!!!!!
Another thought indeed!

Here's a third thought: Drain the podish soup, filter the life, and put it in a milk jug with an air bubbler, saltwater and some fresh live phyto. Add a couple gallons parental tank water to the tank with the heater and the bubbler and the ammonia alert badge. Add unperfumed Chlorox at 1 ml per gallon and let it warm up and bubble for an hour or two. Add an equal volume of 6% Na Thiosulphate or your dechlorinator of choice, and test for chlorine. Collect your larvae, add them to the tank, and go to sleep. Next morning filter rinse and add your already enriched live food to the larval tank. Add phyto to tint green /cloudy. There ya go. Just a suggestion....


M: Also, I'm working off some advice that I'm not quite at liberty to share. Let's just say someone else whom I trust told me to do it this way

K: OK, given that no one knows how to do mandarins but you and your secret someone, and never will, since you are sworn to secrecy (and the entire FBF community is dying of curiosity, and you keep reminding us that you have a secret, lest we forget), at least go with a clean tank for the clownfish. There are many ways to do a thing, and I do not pretend to know everything, but I can't see how the 1200 clownfish in my basement plus the 412 I've sold in the past two months can be all wrong.

M: My other final observation is the current GBG batch. I know I cited that there were at least 10-20 larvae around...and that's only what I could count. This evening the tank has further cleared and there are easily 50-100 GBG's in the tank. There's copepods up the wazoo too (copepods are thought to help maintain water quality as well as feed the larvae, as the copepods not only feed on algae but also detritus).

K: Glad you are having some measure of success. I don't have any experience with gobies. But do you want your gobies eating detritis filled pods, or phyto filled pods?

So I understand the tank has cleared. Nothing to mop up ammonia. Nothing to stand in the way of measuring it either.

They make ammonia alert "badges" that you can place in your tank for $8. They are not perfect, but will tell you if the ammonia is dangerous (when they work, that is) whether or not phyto is in the tank. Also, the Seachem test kit will do the same thing. The advantage of the Seachem test and badge is that it measures ammonia, not the ionized form. Just the dangerous stuff. Neither will lyse the phyto cells.

Biology....Into all life, a little detritus must come. Garbage in, garbage out. Where there is growth, there is waste. Copepods that eat detritus also poop detritus. Further broken down detritus that more easily generates.....drum roll....ammonia. I don't believe they are helping you with your water quality.

M:So there's my rebuttle Kathy. Thoughts?

K: I contemplated not responding at all, because you are raising a species that I have no experience with. You could be right, and I could be wrong. And I don't really care about that, I just want you to have some SUCCESS. I am just thinking about water quality. Are you monitering pH, Oxygen?

Just a very strongly held notion. That water quality may be important. FWIW.
With best regards,
Kathy

 

[Luis A M]

Good pics Matt!.And I see a baby naup above the adult in the last one !?
Can you take measures of newborns?
Good luck!

 

[mwp]

Kathy,

Yup, I know, I'd love to share the info I was given, but I was asked not to, so I must respect that Of course, eventually I will nail down the rearing of the Mandarins, and when that happens, entirely through my own fault I'll of course be recording what I did in the Breeding Log, so elements of that 'secret' will come out...no way around that.

Anyway, you raise a bunch of good points. On the clownfish side, yes, my next batch is getting parental water only and then being seeded...that's the plan there.

Ammonia alert badges - on the "to buy" list but that big purchase last month, followed by the deer accident has once again put me in the hole - I had to cancel my yearly trip to the PA Tributaries to go steelhead fishing (had 9 days planned!) On the upside, that means I'm HERE to play with my own fishies instead! Maybe Seachem wants to send me a couple at NC? And "duh", you're right again Kathy, I can measure free ammonia with the Seachem test I already have which has the same disks. HOWEVER, I gotta say, I haven't found those disks to be all that reliable...i.e. they tend to develop "splotchy" coloration when doing a test - comparing against the AQ Pharm test leads me to believe that my test disks may be damaged (i.e. AQ Pharm will read 0, free ammonia disk may be mostly yellow with a couple splotches of blue or something).

Luis, I reset two of the pictures above, 1 60X and 1 200X, with the microscope's scale. Looks like the nauplii are smaller than many rotifers!

Matt

 

[Luis A M]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8543331#post8543331 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mwp
Luis, I reset two of the pictures above, 1 60X and 1 200X, with the microscope's scale. Looks like the nauplii are smaller than many rotifers!

Matt

If your scale is accurate,this naup measures 100x50 mics!

 

[mwp]

I was getting 100 long, 200 across (with the swimming appendages). But yeah, the body itself sure looks like 50 wide, 100 long!

Matt

 

[Luis A M]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8543809#post8543809 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Luis A M
If your scale is accurate,this naup measures 100x50 mics!

Or 111x55 mics to be more exact!

 

[Luis A M]

Try to make a good shot of an egg bearing SS rot for comparison,with the 200x scale.
Good thing that you pictured them alive cause measures are said to change with fixation.
Can you point the naup with an arrow for everybody to see?.The naup is the blue spider above the adult
How I know they´re alive?Sorry,that´s a secret,can´t comment...:bum: