AEFW new info and photos
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Travis
10 and over club
I heard that 6-line wrasses were supposed to pick the FW's off the corals. So after I finished the levamisole treatments I put 4 6-line wrasses into quarantine in my 75. I wanted to add these fish to the display "just in case" I got the FW's again or just in case something made it past the levamisole dips. I had even spent quite a bit of time reading up on these fish and they are supposed to be decent candidates for schooling fish if the tank is large enough. Well, I can confirm that it is not a good idea to try to add multiple 6-lines. One was very dominant and killed off the other 3 in very short order. So now I am stuck with one mean 6-line in the display and probably ruined my chances of adding any other type of wrasse.
Not sure how useful this info was but figured I might as well share it in case anyone else had thought about getting a small army of 6-lines.
I talked to Mike Paletta at IMAC about the AEFW's. He said he has been experimenting with some different treatments and has been having success with a medication for human tapeworms. He didn't say what the medication was as I'm sure he didn't want to be held liable since he hadn't done enough experimenting yet, but it might be worth looking into some human tapeworm medications.
Not sure how useful this info was but figured I might as well share it in case anyone else had thought about getting a small army of 6-lines. I talked to Mike Paletta at IMAC about the AEFW's. He said he has been experimenting with some different treatments and has been having success with a medication for human tapeworms. He didn't say what the medication was as I'm sure he didn't want to be held liable since he hadn't done enough experimenting yet, but it might be worth looking into some human tapeworm medications.
sparks,
I work at an lfs with a radiant and christmas in a tank that had fw. After about a month of treatment with fwe and dipping our corals, we added the wrasses. I've been following their behavior whenever I'm in the shop and I have noticed that both wrasses especially the radiant nip at sps. All of our sps have been doing better since and I have not seen a single fw since.
I will most likely add in another radiant and a a pair of leopards and monitor them too
I work at an lfs with a radiant and christmas in a tank that had fw. After about a month of treatment with fwe and dipping our corals, we added the wrasses. I've been following their behavior whenever I'm in the shop and I have noticed that both wrasses especially the radiant nip at sps. All of our sps have been doing better since and I have not seen a single fw since.
I will most likely add in another radiant and a a pair of leopards and monitor them too
SERVO
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7497551#post7497551 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SERVO
Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo!!!!
There goes my validaDamn things.
Well here goes.... The big issue is what are these annulids most like-Trematodes, Cestodes or even Nematodes.
I think that biologically the AEFW's are most like the Platyhelminthese flatworms that comprise the Cestodes (tapeworms) and trematodes (flukes). Nematodes are classically roundworms causing intestinal and tissue disease in humans, and are likely not simular enough to the AEFW's. I think that we need to find a medication that will cover the disease of the flukes first. It would be nice to find a simular life cycle. With trematode infections there are both eggs and flukes in the body, so that treatment (if in high enough doses) may be the way to go. The only problem is that the egss are hosted by snails and the larvae infect humans.
Niclosamide or Praziquantel can treat Diphyllobothriasis.
In Diphyllobothriasis humans ingest larvae and pass the eggs. Prazipuantel will also treat Taenia saginata/solium, Clonorchiasis, paragonimiasis and the common (in my brain at least) Schistosomiasis. Schistosomiasis the eggs induce granulomas. Praziquantel is used for all Trematode infections.
IMO, I think that Praziquantel would likely be the best to kill these damn things. The question is, what dose and what will happen to everything else? i haven't read anything on anyone useing this but maybe it is just a concentration issue.
According to Katzung praziquantel enhances Calcium influx and induces muscular contractions. THe drug increases the cell membrane permeability resulting in paralysis of the worm musculature. Vaculoization and disintegration of the tegment occur and parasite death follows."the drugs safety and effectiveness as a single oral dose have also made it useful in mass treatments...." In humans no major adverse effects have been described. In experimental animals, no effects are seen until doses approx 100 times the therapeutic range are reached; signs of CNS toxicity are then seen; A wide variety of mutagenicity, carcinogenicity, embryotoxicity and teratogenicity studies have been negative.
Given the therapeutic effect at 0.3 micrograms/ml I would shoot for this dose and see what happens. If everything looks good, but the FW's are still there I personally would double it redosing no sooner than four hours and then go from there. Again, I don't know of anyone else trying to use this and I am unaware of what does that they tried. It looks good with humans. You could do 50X the recommended therapeutic dose for human infections. Shoot for 15 micrograms/ml first.
What do you think?
Travis, I'm sure that the medication that Palletta was talking about is either Niclosamide or Praziquantel. I think that these hold the most promise, but it is just a concentration issue. Praziquantel is in the Prazipro. The concentration of the dose in the Prazipro is really low. Given the clinical studies for the medications, you should be able to really increase the dose above that in the Prazipro. I'm not sure if anyone has looked at Niclosamide.
So what's up Matt? :rolleye1: Did you get any Niclosamide to use as a bowl treatment?
mntl
New member
I'll join in
I have been able to stay RB free for the life of my systems and about a week or so ago I have noticed some minor recession that looked uneven and happened on some tips and the base of two acros. Around the same time, for the first time, I noticed a flatworm (brown/red) on my glass. I have been following these threads and now believe it is the FW's, until today I did not see them near the acros, so I shot a couple quick pics when the light first turned on.
look on the rock next to the acro:
[/IMG]
Look unter the tip to the left
[/IMG]
Kindo blurry, but you get the point :rolleye1:
The tank is small and currently has no fish, all but 2 colonies (suharsonoi and desalwii) show minor dmg, the pics I posted are by far the worse of the bunch. I have 1 emeral/1 scarlet/a clam and about 10 snails. I think if we needed a good tank to expariment on that is a "reef" and not a quarentine this would be a good one. I can get FWE, Tropic Marin stuff, and lavamisole (sp?) locally. Where should I start? It is not bad yet but is definately increasing. Total water volume is 25 gal, tank is BB/skimmer, I will probably add carbon and try doesing a lower amount (recommended amounts or a bit more) over a longer period of time. I know some of the 10x has seemed to work but I do not know if this is a good idea for a non-quarentine tank.
Any recommendations, I can keep this updated and I am willing to have some losses to document some experiments. suggestions welcome.
P.s. do any of these treatments seem to have effects on things like shrimp/crabs/snails? Has it been tested?
-John-
I have been able to stay RB free for the life of my systems and about a week or so ago I have noticed some minor recession that looked uneven and happened on some tips and the base of two acros. Around the same time, for the first time, I noticed a flatworm (brown/red) on my glass. I have been following these threads and now believe it is the FW's, until today I did not see them near the acros, so I shot a couple quick pics when the light first turned on.
look on the rock next to the acro:
Look unter the tip to the left
Kindo blurry, but you get the point :rolleye1:
The tank is small and currently has no fish, all but 2 colonies (suharsonoi and desalwii) show minor dmg, the pics I posted are by far the worse of the bunch. I have 1 emeral/1 scarlet/a clam and about 10 snails. I think if we needed a good tank to expariment on that is a "reef" and not a quarentine this would be a good one. I can get FWE, Tropic Marin stuff, and lavamisole (sp?) locally. Where should I start? It is not bad yet but is definately increasing. Total water volume is 25 gal, tank is BB/skimmer, I will probably add carbon and try doesing a lower amount (recommended amounts or a bit more) over a longer period of time. I know some of the 10x has seemed to work but I do not know if this is a good idea for a non-quarentine tank.
Any recommendations, I can keep this updated and I am willing to have some losses to document some experiments. suggestions welcome.
P.s. do any of these treatments seem to have effects on things like shrimp/crabs/snails? Has it been tested?
-John-
phileas - it really is that color - it is under a coralvue 10k and it does insane things to the blue/purple in that piece
Servo - no I did not get the niclosamide - I opted for the prazi pro as praziquantel is kind of the gold standard for tapeworms and is readily available now for aquarium use so it is easier to get - I was not able to get around to trying it today though as I had to do stuff with the wife (go look at some furniture!) today - I would bet good money that paletta is talking about praziquantel
Servo - no I did not get the niclosamide - I opted for the prazi pro as praziquantel is kind of the gold standard for tapeworms and is readily available now for aquarium use so it is easier to get - I was not able to get around to trying it today though as I had to do stuff with the wife (go look at some furniture!) today - I would bet good money that paletta is talking about praziquantel
OK - I started wondering what medicine would make the most sense to use - to do this I began to review some worm phylogeny - Platyhelminthes (flat worms) are divided into three groups - planaria (this includes ones that live in ocean and freshwater environments - eg our AEFW), trematodes (flukes), and cestodes (tapeworms) - according to a UC Berkely website I found planaria and trematodes seem to share a common ancestor - we therefore need to focus on medications that will selectively treat trematodes in humans or other animals (as far as I am aware there are no serious human parasitic planarians) - human tapeworms are cestodes and may not be as closely related to the AEFW and therefore meds that work on them may not work as well on AEFW as ones for trematodes - the funny thing is that this may all be moot as praziquantel is proven to be effective against trematode and cestode infections in humans - in fact praziquantel is so effective in humans that basically no other medicines are readily available for treatment of trematode infections (as above, nicloside is a second choice in other parts of the world, but is no longer available in the US)
herositaly
New member
Hi
the Problem of the infections of (turbellarie) it is a lot difficult to resolve without destroying the tub but it is possible to remove the turbellaries that you/they eat the coverage of the corals with some washings with treatment with baths of betadine (3 mls / lt of water of aquarium for 20/25 minutes) and to brush of possible other eggs
the Problem of the infections of (turbellarie) it is a lot difficult to resolve without destroying the tub but it is possible to remove the turbellaries that you/they eat the coverage of the corals with some washings with treatment with baths of betadine (3 mls / lt of water of aquarium for 20/25 minutes) and to brush of possible other eggs
herositaly - I agree - that is one of the problems that I was thinking about last night that I forgot to add - as praziquantel is so effective against many types of worms, it very well may cause a massive worm die-off when used in the system - however at this point, that is a risk I am willing to take for a few reasons - one is that I think removing things and treating them is fine for the pieces you treat, but for larger tanks, you are leaving other pieces in - even if it is rocks with no corals at all - I have yet to figure out how these guys get from one coral to another - they likely just crawl over intervening rock work etc - that means they are likely at any one time basically everywhere - including on random rock work, maybe on the tank walls, maybe on the substrate cruising from one coral to the next - so if you do not treat everything, I think it is likely that you will miss just a few of these guys that over time will just repopulate your whole tank - I know some will say to just remove everything from your tank and treat in a quarantine location - that is just treating your whole tank in a different location with a lot of unecessary work
herositaly
New member
these worms (turbellarie) they depose a lot of eggs and they are very quickly reproduced,
the only solution is to throw out of the aquarium the infected coral and to put him/it an a small tub for 25 minutes with inside water coming from the tub and 3 mls of Betadine (medicine) and the worms will be detached alone dead
then before inserting in coral in the principal tub it needs to have him/it clean with water of the aquarium
it takes a lot of patience and a lot of time.
us here in italia before inserting in the tub a new coral we purify him/it with the procedure that I have described you and batadine.
the worms arrive from the new corals that arrive from the coralfarms
the only solution is to throw out of the aquarium the infected coral and to put him/it an a small tub for 25 minutes with inside water coming from the tub and 3 mls of Betadine (medicine) and the worms will be detached alone dead
then before inserting in coral in the principal tub it needs to have him/it clean with water of the aquarium
it takes a lot of patience and a lot of time.
us here in italia before inserting in the tub a new coral we purify him/it with the procedure that I have described you and batadine.
the worms arrive from the new corals that arrive from the coralfarms
herositaly
New member
the true danger they are the eggs after having inserted the coral in the water with 3 mls of betadine for liter, it needs to help to detach the eggs.
don't leave the coral for more than 25 minutes water with betadine and then to help the removal of the eggs and dead turbellarie with a brush for the teeth is a lot of main point to clean the acropora with water of the aquarium before inserting her/it inside the aquarium
after the treatment the coral can be put again in the tub!
it works here in Italy we use this method,
and is successful!
especially for the prevention to always make a washing to the coral before inserting him/it inside aquarium
I hope that succeed in understanding well my English because is not very good!
don't leave the coral for more than 25 minutes water with betadine and then to help the removal of the eggs and dead turbellarie with a brush for the teeth is a lot of main point to clean the acropora with water of the aquarium before inserting her/it inside the aquarium
after the treatment the coral can be put again in the tub!
it works here in Italy we use this method,
and is successful!
especially for the prevention to always make a washing to the coral before inserting him/it inside aquarium
I hope that succeed in understanding well my English because is not very good!
OK - so the weirdest thing just happened - I was finally getting around to doing my testing with prazipro and had pulled multiple mostly dead branches off of my valida to use in different concentrations baths - I had them all in one bowly and was going to select the ones that had the largest concentrations of worms on them to use for the tests - the water became very cloudy and I thought that it was just from the dying tissue washing off - but after awhile it began to look very strange - it was like one of those swarming masses of schools of small fish you see - the cloudy mass was migrating around the bowl and forming kind of linear densities within the larger cloud - I looked into it with the magnifying glass and it is clearly some free-swimming motile creatures - way too large to be bacteria and way too numerous to be pods etc - what seems very possible to me is that this is some motile form of the AEFW! - this answers the question of how they get from one colony to another on the other side of the tank - I bet that once they exhaust the food supply on one branch (many of the ones I selected were dead almost to the tips) they then somehow produce these motile larvae (may or may not produce some egg form in between, but this seems less likely given the time span witnessed) - it is simply amazing how many there are - I tried to take pics but as they are in the middle of the water column, the camera focuses on the bottom and does not turn out well
herositaly
New member
the dosing is 3 mls of betadine for every liter of water 6 mls for 2 liters...
then already moving the acropora the worms they are detached only alone the eggs must have removed with brush from teeth!
important that water of the aquarium is withdrawn and then the acropora with water of aquarium is always washed for removing the residues of disinfectant
after a few hours the coral it opens the polyps I free from the worms.
this job must be done on all the infected acropores and on the acropores new purchase in coral farm where I am very infect!
then already moving the acropora the worms they are detached only alone the eggs must have removed with brush from teeth!
important that water of the aquarium is withdrawn and then the acropora with water of aquarium is always washed for removing the residues of disinfectant
after a few hours the coral it opens the polyps I free from the worms.
this job must be done on all the infected acropores and on the acropores new purchase in coral farm where I am very infect!
herositaly
New member
do you know betadine?
in US I don't know as it is the name
here you/he/she is sold in the pharmacy it is also disinfectant to wash the hands and also used by the physicians hospital
the jar where contained is it is of yellow color 250 mls
and in italy it costs around 5 European coins
in US I don't know as it is the name
here you/he/she is sold in the pharmacy it is also disinfectant to wash the hands and also used by the physicians hospital
the jar where contained is it is of yellow color 250 mls
and in italy it costs around 5 European coins
