alkalinity question
- Thread starter Nu2SW
- Start date
pepe.king.prawn
New member
try a water change first. What does yours test to? adding calcium such as kalkwasser or dowflake will lower your alkalinity.
Nu2SW
New member
thats the thing i tested my alk at the meeting and I cant remember, It was really high, like 14 or so,
rich was shocked when I showed him the test.
What's the formats for dkh and alk readings from the salifert test if i saw the layout of the test numbers It may jog my memory.
only corals I have are 4 zoa's, 1 frogspawn and 2 xenia
rich was shocked when I showed him the test.
What's the formats for dkh and alk readings from the salifert test if i saw the layout of the test numbers It may jog my memory.
only corals I have are 4 zoa's, 1 frogspawn and 2 xenia
dots
Premium Member
Buy a Alk kit if you don't have one and test regularly. I tend to overtest and test daily before addition of a two part to adjust dosage based on daily uptake. Which varies, since I have been adding a lot of SPS lately and they need stable, consitent Alk.
Buy a Ca kit, Alk and Ca are related......another discussion
I used to add ph buffer willy nilly, until I learned the direct correlation with ph and alkalinity. Do you use buffer all of the time?
The real question is WHY is it so high in the first place.
How do you prepare your water and supplement for the uptake of Calcium and alkalinity?
Adding more calcium in relation to alkalinity in a two part system will correct a situation where alk is a little outside the range. However, adding turbo calcium is not the same. Just adding the calcium will just knock it way out of wack.
The same can be true with alkalinity in relation to Ca However, this gets into the discussion of two parts, and why people experience balance issues when dosing with two parts.
To correct it quickly, do a large water change, and do not add any buffer to the water. It will bring it down.
If you do not see any immediate health issues with your fish and coral......you can opt to bring it down slowly to avoid any shock and just top off with RO water without any buffer as well. May be better, than swinging the alk around your target number.
When I took the time to figure out the chemistry of this and have maintained my Alk with a two part system, all of my "problems" went away. I attribute this mainly to the successes I have had with my tank over the past year.
Please refer to the chemistry forum and read all of the articles, (it is a lot of reading but worth it.).-Doug
Buy a Ca kit, Alk and Ca are related......another discussion
I used to add ph buffer willy nilly, until I learned the direct correlation with ph and alkalinity. Do you use buffer all of the time?
The real question is WHY is it so high in the first place.
How do you prepare your water and supplement for the uptake of Calcium and alkalinity?
Adding more calcium in relation to alkalinity in a two part system will correct a situation where alk is a little outside the range. However, adding turbo calcium is not the same. Just adding the calcium will just knock it way out of wack.
The same can be true with alkalinity in relation to Ca However, this gets into the discussion of two parts, and why people experience balance issues when dosing with two parts.
To correct it quickly, do a large water change, and do not add any buffer to the water. It will bring it down.
If you do not see any immediate health issues with your fish and coral......you can opt to bring it down slowly to avoid any shock and just top off with RO water without any buffer as well. May be better, than swinging the alk around your target number.
When I took the time to figure out the chemistry of this and have maintained my Alk with a two part system, all of my "problems" went away. I attribute this mainly to the successes I have had with my tank over the past year.
Please refer to the chemistry forum and read all of the articles, (it is a lot of reading but worth it.).-Doug
Nu2SW
New member
yeah randy gave me some links. I was using the kent superbuffer but I stopped about 2-3 weeks ago. I dont have many corals and they all seem fine along with the fish.
I have added liquid calcium from kent..."Am I seeing a trend with kent .. lol j/k" maybe about once every few days about 3-4. Should I bring the calcium up more and that will lower the alk. But im readin and ill find out. I gotta do a water change this week so ill do a lil more then normal.
I have added liquid calcium from kent..."Am I seeing a trend with kent .. lol j/k" maybe about once every few days about 3-4. Should I bring the calcium up more and that will lower the alk. But im readin and ill find out. I gotta do a water change this week so ill do a lil more then normal.
dots
Premium Member
It all depend on where you are at now.
The turbo calcuim is much like the buffer.....very concentrated and will throw off your balance.
both the buffers and the turbo are used to get the alk and ca in the range required for both.
maintence is done by two part system, kalk, or a reactor.
I believe that in your case in a low load situation, two part would be the best for you.
Eventually if you got a high load of corals and was using a lot of Alk and Ca, you may want to switch to a calcuim rector. especially when your daily additions of two part get large and hence very costly. for example, a highly dense field of SPS would drain your wallet using two part to keep up with the demand.
My suggestion: Get an Alk and Ca test. Get some B-ionic. Test daily on the alk, weekly on the Ca to find what you need to add daily of the two part.
Use the Kent and Buffer only to get the Ca around 450 and the dkh 7-11, (I shoot for about 10dkh for a little wiggle room)
There are techniques to lower or raise either to fine tune them.
However, work on getting it into the ranges first, then lock them down where you want them. let me know if you have any questions.....Doug
The turbo calcuim is much like the buffer.....very concentrated and will throw off your balance.
both the buffers and the turbo are used to get the alk and ca in the range required for both.
maintence is done by two part system, kalk, or a reactor.
I believe that in your case in a low load situation, two part would be the best for you.
Eventually if you got a high load of corals and was using a lot of Alk and Ca, you may want to switch to a calcuim rector. especially when your daily additions of two part get large and hence very costly. for example, a highly dense field of SPS would drain your wallet using two part to keep up with the demand.
My suggestion: Get an Alk and Ca test. Get some B-ionic. Test daily on the alk, weekly on the Ca to find what you need to add daily of the two part.
Use the Kent and Buffer only to get the Ca around 450 and the dkh 7-11, (I shoot for about 10dkh for a little wiggle room)
There are techniques to lower or raise either to fine tune them.
However, work on getting it into the ranges first, then lock them down where you want them. let me know if you have any questions.....Doug
pepe.king.prawn
New member
Kent liquid calcium will work to lower alkalinity. I'd still recommend you do a water change with DI water. This should lower the alkalinity unless you're using one of the brands with known high alkalinity (IO i believe??.. though it's not 14). None of your corals really require the high calcium and alkalinity that SPS reefers are pushing.
dots
Premium Member
Correct yes it will, but only by raising the Calcium and possibly throwing the whole balance out of sync. Refer to Randy's chemisty articles....he has a good analogy, there is only room for so many total disolved solids. Since, Alk and Ca are mutally exclusive, adding more Ca will drive down the alk. However, if the Ca is already in the correct range, it will only cause even higher ca and lower alk, causing a wider gap between the two.
Without knowing where he is now, it is hard to tell the effects or correct dosage at this point.
You are correct, it will lower it. For now. However, the bigger picture is he gets on a supplementation program that solves the problem permanatly. If not, he will be constantly swinging like a pendulum around his target range because the kents is very easy to overdose.....done it myself. Its not a daily supplement is the point I am trying to make. Only to get the ca into the range, not to control it.
pepe.king.prawn
New member
I haven't read all of randy's articles but here's what goes on with calcium and alkalinity. We'll assume that alkalinity is measured solely as carbonate alkalinity, that is the CO3(-2) ion.
In a reef tank we're concerned with:
CaCO3(s) <-----> Ca(2+) + CO3(-2)
at a pH of 8.3 this reaction can only go so far to the right to give you dissolved ions. By adding Ca, by Le Chatelier's principle it will drive the reaction to the left, essentially precipitating out some of the carbonate ion in solution if you add an excess of calcium (by adding Kent liquid calcium for instance).
I would not necessarily be concerned by your alkalinity, even at 14dkh. The results of this seemingly "high" concentration are probably not detrimental. Most people are worried by high alkalinity because as a result they have a difficult time keeping their calcium where they want it (stony corals, not softies as much). This said, you needn't be overly concerned with your calcium nor your alkalinity at this point.
You can spend lots of time and $ attempting to adjust your alkalinity and Ca to the cookbook values of 7-12 and 400-450 respectively, but it may not gain you much. Liquid supplements get to be expensive really quick. Anyway, regardless... Dose as per directions if you choose to, but water changes are cheap, easy and difficult to overdose
.
In a reef tank we're concerned with:
CaCO3(s) <-----> Ca(2+) + CO3(-2)
at a pH of 8.3 this reaction can only go so far to the right to give you dissolved ions. By adding Ca, by Le Chatelier's principle it will drive the reaction to the left, essentially precipitating out some of the carbonate ion in solution if you add an excess of calcium (by adding Kent liquid calcium for instance).
I would not necessarily be concerned by your alkalinity, even at 14dkh. The results of this seemingly "high" concentration are probably not detrimental. Most people are worried by high alkalinity because as a result they have a difficult time keeping their calcium where they want it (stony corals, not softies as much). This said, you needn't be overly concerned with your calcium nor your alkalinity at this point.
You can spend lots of time and $ attempting to adjust your alkalinity and Ca to the cookbook values of 7-12 and 400-450 respectively, but it may not gain you much. Liquid supplements get to be expensive really quick. Anyway, regardless... Dose as per directions if you choose to, but water changes are cheap, easy and difficult to overdose
.
dots
Premium Member
Sorry guys I have to disagreee, are we talking about using kent on a daily basis or once in a blue moon?..... your missing my point a little......yes it will correct it, but get into it all the time to correct the swings with less forgiving SPS, (which most get into), and RTN an $80 colony and you will get my point about swinging with the kent, I did......yes it willl work, but is it the best for control of the levels in the long run? That is my point, and I think it is more important for the bigger picture and the long run.
Sure, I could replace a fan belt with a pair of panty hose......would you recomend it?
Getting into the proper regement from the get go I think is best for success in the long term.....
This is not the hobby to go cheap on.......IMO....and darn near impossible to do.....I was looking at controllers today. Holy cow!!!
In the end, I do believe we agree on how to solve the immediate problem, I am just looking at the overall picture for our friend here, and his success in the long term, from my past mistakes....
Sure, I could replace a fan belt with a pair of panty hose......would you recomend it?
Getting into the proper regement from the get go I think is best for success in the long term.....
This is not the hobby to go cheap on.......IMO....and darn near impossible to do.....I was looking at controllers today. Holy cow!!!
In the end, I do believe we agree on how to solve the immediate problem, I am just looking at the overall picture for our friend here, and his success in the long term, from my past mistakes....
Nu2SW
New member
Thank you doug, I appreciate your help and concern.
Yeah, This is a expensive hobby and not to be cheap in. Heck Ive already put over 2 grand in my 50 and its been 2 months. Im a lil short on $$$ right now, so I will have to wait to get test kits.
Ive had a string of bad happen. One car stopped working, Gas pump went out. MY other car, My rear tire blew on the freeway at 85pmh and I had to get 2 new tires... ahhh you know they say it happens in 3, so im waiting for the last thing to happen.
Yeah, This is a expensive hobby and not to be cheap in. Heck Ive already put over 2 grand in my 50 and its been 2 months. Im a lil short on $$$ right now, so I will have to wait to get test kits.
Ive had a string of bad happen. One car stopped working, Gas pump went out. MY other car, My rear tire blew on the freeway at 85pmh and I had to get 2 new tires... ahhh you know they say it happens in 3, so im waiting for the last thing to happen.
thereefgeek
New member
Back to my original point the other night:
Don't add stuff to your tank unless you test for it
e.g. - Don't add superbuffer unless your alkalinity tests low; don't add Ca supliments unless it tests low. Don't add Sr & Mb, ever. Don't add Iodine. Don't freak if your Ca is 380ppm and someone tells you the "magic" # is 400 ppm. Close is fine, and unless you have a heavily stocked tank that takes up these eliments, regular water changes are the best solution to replacing these ions.
Also try testing your source, and filtered top-off & make-up water. Some municipal water supplies are more basic (hard) or acidic (soft), and this can inadvertantly affect the end result of your newly mixed saltwater. Try testing a new batch of salt mix once in a while and compare it to your tank.
Don't add stuff to your tank unless you test for it
e.g. - Don't add superbuffer unless your alkalinity tests low; don't add Ca supliments unless it tests low. Don't add Sr & Mb, ever. Don't add Iodine. Don't freak if your Ca is 380ppm and someone tells you the "magic" # is 400 ppm. Close is fine, and unless you have a heavily stocked tank that takes up these eliments, regular water changes are the best solution to replacing these ions.
Also try testing your source, and filtered top-off & make-up water. Some municipal water supplies are more basic (hard) or acidic (soft), and this can inadvertantly affect the end result of your newly mixed saltwater. Try testing a new batch of salt mix once in a while and compare it to your tank.
pepe.king.prawn
New member
do you use tap water for water changes and top-off?
Nu2SW
New member
LOL I am like the only person here who uses tap water
As for the time being yes, I dont have an RO/DI unit ,cant afford one right now "Gladly accepting donations" , I am going to get some RO water from either my mother-in-law or from the water dispenser machines inside stores, not outside. Winco has them carbon, filtered, RO and the UV treated. 25cents a gallon.
HAHAH am I ghetto??? :rollface: :lol: :rollface:
As for the time being yes, I dont have an RO/DI unit ,cant afford one right now "Gladly accepting donations" , I am going to get some RO water from either my mother-in-law or from the water dispenser machines inside stores, not outside. Winco has them carbon, filtered, RO and the UV treated. 25cents a gallon.
HAHAH am I ghetto??? :rollface: :lol: :rollface:
pepe.king.prawn
New member
The tap water is most likely the reason for your high alkalinity. I used tap water for years in the bay area (even with sps), and it was okay but it's also very soft. Sacramento water is generally groundwater and is pretty hard, hence the high buffering capacity (aka alkalinity). Check out some of the units on ebay, that's what I'm using now and it was cheap and works perfect for my needs. I think it was $100 shipped and with an extra set of cartridges. I doubt it's the purest of RO/DI but it's certainly a bit better than tap water.
Nu2SW
New member
yah I know thats the one I want to get, But I cant afford it.
Not with all thats happened and my youngest is having her first birthday on june 6th. So I am strapped as I can be..... it sucks
But My birthday is in like a week, Hey maybe I can get one for that from family... Heh in my dreams.
Not with all thats happened and my youngest is having her first birthday on june 6th. So I am strapped as I can be..... it sucks
But My birthday is in like a week, Hey maybe I can get one for that from family... Heh in my dreams.
