Allelopathy between haddoni and gigantea?

Postal

New member
For the last two years I have kept an emerald green haddoni in my system. It spent a few months in one tank, and then has spent the remainder of that time in a different tank on the same system. The anemone has grown and thrived over that time period, growing from about 6" to over 12".
Then, in early August 2013, I acquired a blue gigantea from another reefer. I got the gig from a newbie reefer that had bought it from someone the month before that had it for more than a year. The gig was not in great shape when I got it due to poor water quality and poor lighting in the newbie's tank. I have a thread on here showing it when I got it and subsequent pics as it improved.

Now the issue. Soon after adding the gig to another tank on the same system, the haddoni went on walk about. It moved throughout the tank and ended up on the glass at the top of the tank near the return. There is nothing in the tank but sand, rock, and a pair of GSM's. The last change to the tank had been adding LED's 6 months or more prior. As the gig improved, the haddoni went downhill. It shrank into itself and stayed closed and stuck at the top of the tank. It was a slow downhill process for about a month. Then as the gig really started improving, the haddoni took another step for the worse. The anemone lost/withdrew all of its tentacles and basically turned white over the course of a few days with its mouth gaping open and stomach protruding. During the course of this issue, I had posted in passing about the situation but was told it probably wasn't allelopathy since plenty of people keep the two species together. I didn't really have a great option to move the haddoni so I let it go on like this for too long.
Eventually, I shifted some tanks around and moved the haddoni and GSM's to a Solana to separate the two anemones. The haddoni still looked like crap for a couple days. It attached, but was still white, curled up, and mouth gaping (probably 1.5-2"). The only green to be seen on the anemone were 10-15 tiny tentacles near the rim in one section. After a few days, however, the haddoni started to expand and the mouth slowly closed (almost completely). Now in the last week, the green has started to come back at an incredible rate, probably a 10% increase daily in tentacles showing. The small tentacles are still extremely sticky, and the nem has quickly taken small pieces of fresh shrimp this week.
Here are some pics to show the before and after. Unfortunately, I did not take pics of it at the lowest point, but trust me, it was not good.









I wish I had more specific before, during, and after pics, but this is the best I have.
So given the circumstances, I really only see allelopathy as an option. Nothing else changed in the system. The only option I could think of was that the gig passed on a pathogen of some sort to the haddoni. But if that were the case, I wouldn't expect to see improvement just from a move to a separate system. BTW, there is a malu and crucifer in the same system and they seem unaffected other than the malu maybe not expanding quite as much, but not obviously so.

So, what do you think? Do my anemones hate each other, or is there something else going on.
 

OrionN

Moved on
There are so many things that can be the cause of decline of your green Haddoni. Certainly your tank now is different that what it was two years ago. Your conclusion, while it may be true, is not support by the information you give.
You conclusion can be easily pick a part by anybody with a experimental scientific mind. If you keep them together and they do well, then it is proof that there are no allelopathy. The reverse, while it may be true, it is not support by facts.
 

Azedenkae

New member
I've gotta agree with OrionM. Not saying you're wrong, but the fact that they have been kept together successfully by other aquarists will indicate that at least the allelopathy is only circumstancial. It could even be 'the norm' and them being kept together is circumstantial, but unfortunately there's not much to be taken from here.

Get two different haddoni and gig and put them together and see what happens. Be'd interesting to see it replicated a few times.

Who knows, maybe under a specific spectrum of light the gig releases allelopathic chemicals. Maybe.
 

Postal

New member
There are so many things that can be the cause of decline of your green Haddoni. Certainly your tank now is different that what it was two years ago. Your conclusion, while it may be true, is not support by the information you give.
You conclusion can be easily pick a part by anybody with a experimental scientific mind. If you keep them together and they do well, then it is proof that there are no allelopathy. The reverse, while it may be true, it is not support by facts.

I'm not submitting my assumptions as established facts for peer review so I am not really worried about your "experimental scientific mind". And of course my tank has changed over the last two years, but I doubt it changed much from the week prior to the introduction of the gigantea when the haddoni was still triving. Obviously without a completely controlled environment there is no way to prove allelopathy is the issue. I simply made the most logical conclusion in my opinion based on my experience. I am in no way presenting it as proof that allelopathy is a constant in all situations. I merely think it is a very likely option in my specific case.

Assume the same lighting, same flow, same water parameters for the haddoni and the only change to the system is adding the gigantea and 3 euphyllias to different tanks in the same system. What would you propose is the most likely factor in the haddoni's near demise?
 

OrionN

Moved on
In order to reach a conclusion of cause and affect, the cause must be the only variable that change. There is no way that you can say that adding the Gigantea is the only variable that change over the last 2 years. Therefor the conclusion you reach is not supported by facts. Even if we only consider your tank alone, the cause could be build up of a variety of un-measurable trace chemicals, elements in your tank. You know the "old tank syndrome."
In addition to this, there are many reefers that keep Gigantea and Haddoni together, myself included. They are thriving. This is a fact that supports the conclusion that there are no allelopathy interaction between the two species.
 

OrionN

Moved on
Consider your system alone, if it is allelopathy, the Haddoni would continue decline, not improve lately.
I think there was/is a problem that was undetected. The problem is improving/resolving due to something you did intetionally or unintenitoally, or something that is self correcting.
Our reef system are such a complex biological system that there are going to be process that are going on that we understand only in general. Other process that we may not know about at all.
 

Postal

New member
The haddoni only began to improve after it was moved to a Solana (separate system) as was described in the initial post.
Of course the system changed over the 2 years, but the haddoni was thriving during that timeframe up until the gig was added. And again, I am obviously not saying this occurs everytime between these species since that is obviously not the case based on others' experiences. Do you propose that because it doesn't happen in some instances that it can't happen in other situations?
 

Deepsea2005

New member
I don't know much about SCIENCE, but I do know my Gig does the same thing whenever I add a new anemone, or move other anemones around in the system.
My system is about 600g. I have a red haddoni in the 150g tank, a blue gig in the 300g SPS tank. I just setup a 2'x2'x6" tall tank for my new Mccullochi clowns.
Pictures are when I moved the Haddoni around to clean the sandbed a few months ago.
The gid did the same thing 2 weeks ago when I fist added 2 tricolor nems into the Mccullochi tank.
And it did it again yesterday (I just added 3 rose anemones on Sunday), as of right now, it shrinks as the picture (always makes me worry though)
This behavior will last for about 2 days.

Before
med_gallery_143_42_636125.jpg

After
med_gallery_143_42_107428.jpg
 

Reefvette

New member
Anemones

Anemones

In the wild you will rarely find these anemones with in feet of each other, nevermind next to each other.

There are reasons for that along with why you dont see magnificas and mertens together.

They are large hosting anemones and need room.

I would either say its alleopathy or the introduction of a foreign body by the new anemone.

Either way they dont like being in the same area.

I dont recommend mixing magnifica,mertens,haddon and gigantea.
 

OrionN

Moved on
The haddoni only began to improve after it was moved to a Solana (separate system) as was described in the initial post.
Of course the system changed over the 2 years, but the haddoni was thriving during that timeframe up until the gig was added. And again, I am obviously not saying this occurs everytime between these species since that is obviously not the case based on others' experiences. Do you propose that because it doesn't happen in some instances that it can't happen in other situations?
I think sick anemone may loose integrety and may spill out something into the enviroment. Extreme case of this is when Magnifica get chew up by a PH and wipe out a tank.
 

Postal

New member
I considered rhe introduction of a foreign body, but assumed that the filter socks between tanks would eliminate most possibilities other than viral or bacterial. And if a contagion was a factor, I would assume that the haddoni would still have issues after being moved to a separate system. Although it could be possible that it just happened to recover from some type of infection/illness on its own at the same time it was moved.
I will have to get some more pics of the haddoni. The mouth still has not closed completely but the color is coming back at an amazing rate.
 

garygb

New member
My observations are anecdotal like so many things in this hobby, but I would not be at all surprised that allelopathy is the cause of the changes you observed in the haddoni in the presence of the gigantea. I have observed similar changes when I've kept BTAs and Magnifica together long-term in the past. I eventually decided that I will not keep those two species together. The changes take place over many months in my case.
 

Loganeri

Premium Member
I don't know much about SCIENCE, but I do know my Gig does the same thing whenever I add a new anemone, or move other anemones around in the system.
My system is about 600g. I have a red haddoni in the 150g tank, a blue gig in the 300g SPS tank. I just setup a 2'x2'x6" tall tank for my new Mccullochi clowns.
Pictures are when I moved the Haddoni around to clean the sandbed a few months ago.
The gid did the same thing 2 weeks ago when I fist added 2 tricolor nems into the Mccullochi tank.
And it did it again yesterday (I just added 3 rose anemones on Sunday), as of right now, it shrinks as the picture (always makes me worry though)
This behavior will last for about 2 days.

Before
med_gallery_143_42_636125.jpg

After
med_gallery_143_42_107428.jpg

Interesting, I'm experiencing this same behavior with my existing green gig after a blue gig was added. It has shrunken two days in a row. I worry but it's not like the deflate/inflate cycle we're used to seeing when an anemone is going downhill. The tentacles remain long just deflated and the mouth seems to be okay.
 

OrionN

Moved on
Gigantea is really sensitive to pH spike. Are you adding Kalk? Becareful with adding this because this will really stress the Gigantea.
Event adding NaCO3 too quick will really stress Gigantea. I found this out after keep my Gigantea over the last 18 months.
 

Loganeri

Premium Member
I don't think it's the pH because the other two gigs are fine. Just the initial established green deflates. It's back to normal today. Will continue to monitor the pattern. Oh yeah, I don't dose kalk. Thanks
 
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