Amino Acids and SPS corals

[Shawnts106]

hey you guys, I have been researching Amino Acid Additions to SPS tanks, or at least aquariums with Small Polyps Stoney corals like Acros, montis, etc... in them.

I have noticed alot of reference tward Amino Acid additions on a regular basis.
At first I thought this was another craze that someone found to "work for them" so everyone started to do it...

But I am curious as to how many people do utilize some type of Amino Acid Complex in their sps systems?
How could Amino Acids benefit Acros and SPS corals ... ???
I didnt think the corals could uptake Amino Acids up through tissues through the water column?

 

[MiddletonMark]

Some good info, a couple of opinions on this recent thread:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=974740

Having tried a couple, IMO I haven't seen anything that makes me want to spend more money on them. Seems like spending for a good DIY food helps both my fish and corals ... nevermind is cheaper, no more likely to cause nutrient issues. JMO.

Anyway, I'll shut up now. Talk too much on the other thread already

 

[trueblackpercula]

I just started to use them on my tank day 3 now. I will try it for 3 months to see if there is any difference if not then I can say I tried. What lead me to the use of them was looing at other tanks from italy the have some great looking tanks and use amino acids.
Michaelllllllllllllllll

 

[Shawnts106]

Good artical, I liked it...

I myself Dont see any main benefit from this, untill I see the science as well I duno..

I would like to see someones SPS tank going from CRAP to MAJIC after ONLY changing the dossage of AA.


MiddletonMark:
Overall what is your general Idea about AA additions in SPS reefs> please back up your idea with scientific evidence.

I also would like to know how AA help Algae? I suppose that Algaes do make proteins as well, but if AA additions is fueling Algae, wouldnt it fuel corals too?

 

[glassbox-design]

everyone wants the scientific data to back it up and i keep saying it's out there. if you really want to know research it yourself. meso has posted numerous articles on the other forum about this topic...and on many other advanced topics....

 

[mesocosm]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8607617#post8607617 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Shawnts106
... I didnt think the corals could uptake Amino Acids up through tissues through the water column?

The thread that MiddletonMark cited presents some excellent stuff. Definitely worth the read. For example ...

First, corals and many marine invertebrates can directly take up many types of dissolved organic nitrogen (DON) including any amino acid used in the assays (they also take up DOP and DOC, but unless the substance is a sugar or somethign of that sort, must dissolved organics include C, N and P within the same molecule). If the question is do coral holobionts direclty take up amino acids from solution, the answer is yes. It is not known how they are doing this (is the coral animal using an active uptake system? are symbiotic bacteria in the mucus facilitating uptake?) but nonetheless they do it.

Chris Jury (MCsaxmaster)

:thumbsup:

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8608716#post8608716 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Shawnts106
... I also would like to know how AA help Algae? ...

Ignoring what's going on with the bacteria which inhabit the surface of either micro or macro algae for the moment, marine algae utilize amino acids as a nitrogen source. While microalgae and macroalgae do interesting things, in terms of amino acid delivery (ingestion ... not digestion) to scleractinians, we're talking about phytoplankton, yes?

Amino Acid Uptake by Marine Phytoplankters
Patricia A. Wheeler, Barbara B. North, Grover C. Stephens
Limnology and Oceanography, Vol. 19, No. 2, pp. 249-259
March 1974


Abstract

Axenic cultures of 25 species of unicellular marine algae were tested for their ability to utilize nine common amino acids, supplied at high concentrations in batch culture, as a nitrogen source; most species were able to use several amino acids, although growth was often slower than on nitrate nitrogen. The algae were also tested for their ability to take up 14 C-labeled amino acids supplied at low, natural concentrations. In most cases, species that could grow on an amino acid at high concentration in culture could also take up amino acids at low concentrations. Uptake rates were higher in cells that had been deprived of nitrogen during growth. In some cases, uptake rates at low concentrations-if sustained-would be sufficient to support moderate growth rates. The ability to accumulate amino acids from dilute solution occurs in many phytoplankters, particularly in species that normally occur in inshore and littoral habitants.

:thumbsup:

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8608716#post8608716 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Shawnts106
... until I see the science ...

Hehe ... two quotes immediately leap to mind ...


"Be very, very careful what you put into that head,
because you will never, ever get it out."

- Thomas Cardinal Wolsey (1471-1530)




"The most experienced and well-informed minds are too busy still working in the trenches to take the time to write or teach to exclusion. ... Keep in mind that you are unlikely to meet such a guru on the internet at 2:00 AM. Most of the real wizards of the industry are not waiting for you with a speedy electronic reply at a moment's notice. In fact, it is more likely that the self-professed expert that has been so generously giving you electronic misinformation sits in front of his computer buck naked just like you and me. I know, I know ... I don't like to think about it either; it's sad but true."

- Anthony Calfo. Book of Coral Propagation.




Here are some links which may be helpful to folks interested in conducting their own online research expeditions ...

Subject Directories and Literature Search Engines
http://www.theaquariumcenter.com/articles/searchWeb_subjectDirectories.htm
Scirus
http://www.theaquariumcenter.com/articles/searchWeb_scirus.htm
BUBL
http://www.theaquariumcenter.com/articles/searchWeb_bubl.htm
Selected Governmental Sources
http://www.theaquariumcenter.com/articles/searchWeb_governmentalSources.htm

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8580527#post8580527 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
... while corals do use DON like amino acids directly from solution, the Fitzgerald and Szmant paper is not getting at this fact. Instead, what that paper demonstrates is that corals appear to have a greater ability to build one amino acid from another as compared to most animals. ... It appears that many corals may be able to build all or nearly all of the normal amino acids themselves, though some amino acids may be semi-essential, that is, while a coral can produce some of a certain amino acid, it cannot build a sufficient amount without also receiving some in the diet. ...

This goes right to the heart of the matter.

Does the introduction of amino acids into the water column increase the cellular products (of the coral host) and photosynthates (of the zooxanthellae, and perhaps of associated cyanobacteria) such that corals exhibit increased growth rates and/or enriched pigmentation?

Put another way ... can we up growth and pigmentation by artificially increasing the pool of reactants utilized by the coral-symbiote matrix (holobiont)? Clearly, the general answer is a resounding ... YES. The rub is that specific pathways, specific amino acid reactants, and specific concentration levels of reactants ... to say nothing of specific, replicable outcomes ... remain largely undefined. It's extremely difficult to achieve anything approaching "cost effectiveness" without knowing the specifics.

This "rub" is compounded by the role that non-reactant variables play, and these variables may be far more determinant than any excess of amino acid formulations that we might introduce. Mass transfer rate is but one of the variables which immediately leaps to mind.

If you haven't read Chris Jury's (MCsaxmaster) articles on the nutrient dynamics of coral reefs in Reefkeeping Magazine, and Jake Adams' (coralite) articles on water flow in Advanced Aquarist ... they're well worth the time and effort.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8580527#post8580527 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
... Will adding amino acids to a tank directly provide a coral with N that it can use? Yes, it will. Will adding AAs indirectly provide usuable N due to bacterial uptake, etc., that the coral can then use? Most likely yes. Is dumping amino acids into a tank the most effective or most natural way for corals to receive N? No, probably not. Is a $10 bottle of amino acids (or whatever they cost) more effective than pureeing some seafood and adding this to the tank (pennies on the dollar)? No, probably not. ...

Indeed ... and I find the implications of this to be fascinating in terms of the future evolution of marine ornamental husbandry practices. Amino acid solution supplementation may only be an intermediary step along the pathway towards where we ultimately end up. High amino acid foods (perhaps with targeted, specific AA enrichment) may produce more cost effective results ... and provide a wide range of broader ecosystem benefits totally distinct from the effects on scleractinians.


JMO ... sorry for the length. I get way too excited about this stuff.
:thumbsup:

 

[RichConley]

Re: Amino Acids and SPS corals

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8607617#post8607617 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Shawnts106

I didnt think the corals could uptake Amino Acids up through tissues through the water column?

THey can't.


THey break them down into nitrate/phosphate, and whatever other trace is in there.(IE they eat them) Just feed more. THeyre a waste of money.

 

[glassbox-design]

Meso - great info as usual!

 

[Shawnts106]

Meso, thank you for that wonderful reply... I appreciated it, makes perfect sence!!!

I wasnt even considering the molecular breakdown of Aminos to be utilized as nitrogen or phosphorus molecules!


Then may I ask you this Meso,

Do you concider that adding a good Amino Acid complex to a SPS reef aquarium would substantially benefit the corals, increasing color, health, growth etc...?


IF so what brand would you recommend?
Seachem puts out a Amino Acid Complex.... I love seachem products...


Two Little Fishes also puts out a HUFA something or other... I forget, its been YEARS since I used it.

 

[Greg Hiller]

>I didnt think the corals could uptake Amino Acids up through tissues through the water column?
-THey can't. <

Don't believe the scientists?

"Biosysnthesis of 'essential' amino acids by
scleractinian corals" - Fitzgerald and Szmant in Biochem, J, 1997,
322, 213-221.

 

[tike]

I have just stared adding glutamine (amino acid) to my tank for a week now. I purchase it from a organic food store. I have a 65 gallon tank and for the past week i add daily 1/4 teaspoon of pureed oyster with 60 mg of the glutamine mixed in with 100 ml of ro water. It is just a experiment i am trying for a month. It has shown some promise alredy. This frag of A. tizardi was added to my tank on Nov. 17th. Not sure yet if this from my new feeding system or not.

 

[mesocosm]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8614264#post8614264 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Shawnts106
... Do you consider that adding a good Amino Acid complex to a SPS reef aquarium would substantially benefit the corals ...

If the question is whether or not a commercial mixture of amino acids has the potential to influence growth and coloration, and it's conceded that zooxanthellae photosynthates have the capacity to influence growth and coloration, then the answer is clearly ... yes.


Consider this "Golden Oldie" ...

Free amino acids exhibit anthozoan "host factor" activity: they induce the release of photosynthate from symbiotic dinoflagellates in vitro.
R D Gates, O Hoegh-Guldberg, M J McFall-Ngai, K Y Bil, L Muscatine
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1995 Aug 1;92:7430-4

Reef-building corals and other tropical anthozoans harbor endosymbiotic dinoflagellates. It is now recognized that the dinoflagellates are fundamental to the biology of their hosts, and their carbon and nitrogen metabolisms are linked in important ways. Unlike free living species, growth of symbiotic dinoflagellates is unbalanced and a substantial fraction of the carbon fixed daily by symbiont photosynthesis is released and used by the host for respiration and growth. Release of fixed carbon as low molecular weight compounds by freshly isolated symbiotic dinoflagellates is evoked by a factor (i.e., a chemical agent) present in a homogenate of host tissue. We have identified this "host factor" in the Hawaiian coral Pocillopora damicornis as a set of free amino acids. Synthetic amino acid mixtures, based on the measured free amino acid pools of P. damicornis tissues, not only elicit the selective release of 14C-labeled photosynthetic products from isolated symbiotic dinoflagellates but also enhance total 14CO2 fixation.

Source
http://hoegh-guldberg.lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:11607567

"Synthetic amino acid mixtures ... not only elicit the selective release of 14C-labeled photosynthetic products from isolated symbiotic dinoflagellates but also enhance total 14CO2 fixation."

Pretty much says it all with regards to the potential to influence growth and coloration, doesn't it?


Not JMO ... this is the science.

 

[MCsaxmaster]

Okey dokey, a few comments:

1. Marine algae of many and diverse types can and do utilize free amino acids (FAAs) as a source of nitrogen (e.g., citation by mesocosm). Most are anywhere from not very good to bad at using these for production as compared to production rates with ammonium or even nitrate. In general autotrophs (especially marine algae) are very good at using ammonium as an N source, almost as good at using nitrate, and so-so (variable) at using FAAs.

2. Corals, both zooxanthellate and azooxanthellate, as well as many other marine invertebrates absolutely do actively take up and use FAAs from sea water. This has been known for a long time (many decades). Heck, I can think of a number of studies off the top of my head (one in ~'94 by Ove Hoegh-Guldberg, several in the late 80's by Yuri Sorokin) where rates of uptake of FAAs were measured in corals. There are lots of others too. This may be new information to a lot of aquarists, but it is nothing new to the scientific community.

3. Corals, like any organism, do not necessarily digest amino acids (i.e., deaminate them) before using them. If a coral is making protein X composed of 20% valine, 40% tyrosine, and 40% alanine and has just injested a bunch of alanine it simply uses the alanine it has ingested as is. There's no reason to deaminate the alanine and then make some more. Now, if the coral is low on valine and has an excess of alanine it probably will deaminate some alanine and make valine so it can build protein X. Doing this requires energy, so organisms don't do it unless they need to. Excess amino acids are simply burned off for energy (much of this can be recycled between the zooxanthellae and coral host in zooxanthellate corals so much less N is lost to the environment than in azooxanthellate corals).

4. For the love of God, amino acid solutions are nothing magical! They are nothing special at all. They are nothing (in effect) but predigested meat (missing vitamins, minerals and roughage). Compare an amino acid solution to an Artemia nauplii, or frozen copepod, or pureed hunk of shrimp. What are the differences?

a. The amino acid solution doesn't need to be digested whereas the piece of food does (taking energy), so score one for the AA solution.

b. FAAs are taken up slowly and inefficiently by most corals whereas particulate food is taken up quickly and very efficiently. Score one for particulate food.

c. An FAA solution is devoid of vitamins, biologically accessible minerals, and fatty acids (all of which may be essential--poorly understood now) whereas the food will have all these things. Score one for particulate food.

d. An FAA solution can be easily taken up by organisms that we don't want to fuel in an aquarium, such as undesirable algae. Particulate food cannot be taken up directly by algae and only fuel problematic levels of algae growth if more is added than can be consumed by in-tank suspension feeders. Score one for particulate food.

e. FAA solutions are (I hear) often pretty expensive, especially as compared to some pureed seafood or live food like Artemia nauplii or rotifers. Score one for particulate food.

Now, I think that using FAA solutions certainly is not without merit. Using an concentrated FAA solution with a severly bleached coral in a little recirculating tank for a few hours a day very well could help it recover (especially if it is having trouble catching prey). I think that using an FAA solution is better than not feeding at all for the those hobbyists that refuse to believe that corals eat.

It troubles me though that people seem to be starting or even jumping on a bandwagon. I'll say it again, FAA solutions aren't magic! They're just food. They're not even the most ideal food, though they're better than nothing at all. There is quite literally nothing an FAA solution could do for a coral that a good particulate food could not, and likely many good things particulate foods can do for them that FAA solutions cannot.

Chris

 

[twon8]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8620344#post8620344 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
.....There is quite literally nothing an FAA solution could do for a coral that a good particulate food could not, and likely many good things particulate foods can do for them that FAA solutions cannot.

Chris

thank you for that post Chris, I hope it clears things up for people; it certainly did for me.

 

[trueblackpercula]

It made things very clear and that it can aid in color and growth. so there for amino acids are the way to go for me as I would rather add AA then food that is susspened in the water colum. But in any direction you go it can't hurt .
Michael

 

[MiddletonMark]

In the end, for me it distills down to this final point.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8620344#post8620344 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
There is quite literally nothing an FAA solution could do for a coral that a good particulate food could not, and likely many good things particulate foods can do for them that FAA solutions cannot.

Great post, I learned from it.

Nice to have a lot of information piled on from you and Mesocosm.


Given there's a limited amount of nutrient that I can export, aminos factor into the matching amount I import. [so the plan is ]

But then might need to replace other foods, in order to keep the tank from nutrient issues. In that case, it all would depend on the food it would replace, I guess.

In some cases, this could be beneficial.
In cases with stressed corals [import/shipping/etc] they could be a very useful tool to help the coral rebound. One of a number of tools for that state, though.

In all cases? In this case I start to question it ... it could be replacing some other very promising foods.

Then again, my opinion's n = 1 `study' is far from scientific or viable :lmao:

 

[MCsaxmaster]

:thumbsup:

I would suggest though that the effects of feeding (whether on prey or due to uptake of FAAs) on growth and coloration are being approached from a scewed and problematic perspective from some.

If the addition of more food (of whatever sort) makes a coral more colorful, the conclusion should not be that the food is giving the coral a "boost" but rather that the coral was previously underfed. I would think it is also a reasonable goal that growth (skeletal and tissue) should not be limited for lack of food. If a coral responds to food (of whatever sort) with substantially faster growth it means it wasn't getting a sufficient diet before. Therefore, food additions (of whatever type) that cause a coral to grow quickly and produce normal amount of colorful pigments should not be viewed as above or beyond normal husbandry. Indeed, they should be an integral part of normal husbandry and anything less should be seen as inadequate.

Chris

 

[Lobster]

Amino acids are important to all complex organisms, yes. I don't think there's need for debate on this. The debate is whether you need to shell out $40 for a bottle of mystery liquid OR properly feed your tank in the first place.

We all want to believe in the bottle. Its easier. My advice is that if someone is cheerleading for the bottle, consider the source. The simple fact is there are many beautiful, successful tanks with great color and growth thanks only to good husbandry and good feeding. The proof is in the pudding folks. That's all that is required.

 

[mesocosm]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8614264#post8614264 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Shawnts106
... Do you consider that adding a good Amino Acid complex to a SPS reef aquarium would substantially benefit the corals, increasing color, health, growth etc...?

As a "general" practice? ... no. As a component of a specific feeding regiment targeted towards Acropora-like scleractinians ... possibly, but I tend to agree with Chris (and many others) that there are much better "bang for the buck" food options out there (not the least of which being unique hobbyist preparations). As a component of a broader feeding strategy directed towards the ecosystem of the tank? ... yes, in regular, low concentration pulses.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8620344#post8620344 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
... For the love of God, amino acid solutions are nothing magical! They are nothing special at all. ... I'll say it again, FAA solutions aren't magic! They're just food. They're not even the most ideal food, though they're better than nothing at all. ...

Chris, forgive me but I'll trying to figure out a way to cleanly and inoffensively cyber-poke you to illict more stuff like this. This ought to be axiomatic (evident without proof or argument; containing aphorisms or maxims; "axiomatic wisdom" ) as hobbyists progress to the level of making informed feeding strategy choices.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8620344#post8620344 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
... Compare an amino acid solution to an Artemia nauplii, or frozen copepod, or pureed hunk of shrimp. What are the differences? ...

Setting the potential benefits of "gut-loading" live foods aside ... vitamins, minerals, and HUFAs (highly unsaturated fatty acids).

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8620344#post8620344 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
... There's no reason to deaminate the alanine and then make some more. Now, if the coral is low on valine and has an excess of alanine it probably will deaminate some alanine and make valine so it can build protein X. Doing this requires energy, so organisms don't do it unless they need to. Excess amino acids are simply burned off for energy (much of this can be recycled between the zooxanthellae and coral host in zooxanthellate corals so much less N is lost to the environment than in azooxanthellate corals). ...

Chris, have you seen any research specifying how extragenic (from a source other than the gene code of either the zooxanthellae or the coral host) amino acids contribute to the FAA pool utilized the coral host?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8620344#post8620344 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
... There is quite literally nothing an FAA solution could do for a coral that a good particulate food could not, and likely many good things particulate foods can do for them that FAA solutions cannot.

Another quote that ought to be axiomatic.

Sweet ...

I would add one tiny (possibly insignificant) exception ... particulates can't enrich themselves if there's nothing to enrich themselves with ... the presence of FAA in the water column have the potential to add to the value of macro-aggregates and particulates.


Possibly appropo of nothing, an graphic representation of amino acid leakage from a macro-aggregate ("marine snow") ...

Extracted from:
http://www.fishnet.dk/networks/slip/projects/individual_based_models.htm


Chris ... when you speak of a "particulate", do you have a specific size range in mind? Any specific compositional characteristics?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8622680#post8622680 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MiddletonMark
... Nice to have a lot of information piled on from you ...

Indeed. Whenever I see the stuff that either Chris of Jake publish, I'm reminded of a line from the B-grade movie Hooper. It goes something like ... the next generation of stuntmen aren't like us. They don't say up all night, they don't get blind drunk, and they all carry little pocket calculators. And if we're not careful, they're going to blow us out of the water.

Heads up, folks ... the academic research of the last 40 years is finally beginning to blend meaningfully with the practical experiences of successful hobbyists. Is that cool, or what?


JMO
:thumbsup:

 

[MCsaxmaster]

Chris, have you seen any research specifying how extragenic (from a source other than the gene code of either the zooxanthellae or the coral host) amino acids contribute to the FAA pool utilized the coral host?

I'm not sure I'm clear what you're asking. Do you mean to ask what proportion of the N utilized by corals (mostly put into amino acids) comes from organic sources (implying the ability to simply reassemble AAs) vs. inorganic sources (implying the need to build AAs by aminating carbohydrates)? If that is what you mean, it varies some, but most estimates are on the order of about 30% coming from inorganic and 70% from organic sources. If that is not what you meant I don't follow.

I would add one tiny (possibly insignificant) exception ... particulates can't enrich themselves if there's nothing to enrich themselves with ... the presence of FAA in the water column have the potential to add to the value of macro-aggregates and particulates.

Okey dokey, but most of the enrichment of detritus occurs due to microbial colonization. I'm not sure there's a lot we can do to influence that except to have much bigger sumps and refugia to allow time for more thorough colonization of detritus by microbes. Dissolved free amino acids (DFAAs) are taken up directly by corals and a lot of critters. I don't think that the ab/adsorption of DFAAs to particles is necessarily a signifcant means to get them into corals if the DFAAs are dumped in such as with a solution.

Chris ... when you speak of a "particulate", do you have a specific size range in mind? Any specific compositional characteristics?

Nope. Pretty much all stony corals seem to be able to catch and consume particles from the size of bacteria (< 1 um) to decently sized zooplankton (> 500 um). It seems some are a little better at catching small particles and others are a little better at catching big particles, but all of them catch particles in essentially every size class. Also, the only preference for stony corals in terms of composition seems to be for meaty (heterotrophs--zooplankton, microzooplankton, ciliates, flagellates, bacteria, microbially colonized detritus) and against planty (autotrophs--phytoplankters, cyanobacteria, fresh algal detritus).

Chris