Amino acids...

Yeah I'm working on getting some new ballasts. I got these as part as a package deal a while back. Any suggestions on what I should get? Galaxy?
 
Most systems run low in iron as it depletes quickly ;mine does. I test and dose a small amount never over nsw levels. It's for everything but mostly the chaeto.
 
Yes Gary , I use the Kent chelated Iron /Manganese . I tend to shy away from Kent stuff after the debacle with their Reef Carbon and metal contamination a few months ago but this product seems ok. The fact that it has organics to chelate it assuages concerns about any free metals that might slip in there as they would likely bind to the organics. It has a litle maganese and zinc too per their label..
 
So I understand the iodide but not the iron. I thought too much iron turned your corals green? or is it just for the macro?

It's lttle tricky to explain.
Iron Fe3+ and FE2+ is used by most living things. It helps move electrons from one place to another as it shifts from FE2+ to FE3+ . The movement of electrons is essential to many life functions. As an example photosynthesis involves splitting off the C from CO2 leaving organic glucose and O2 behind. Photosynthesis looks like this:
6CO2 + 6H2O then C6 H12 O6(glucose) + 6)2. In humans and fish it helps form hemoglaobin . Organisms have many strategies to get at it which indicates they need it.

In a reef tank it is grabbed up by many organisms from food, absorbed from the water column or bound with siderpores excreted by some organisms to harvest it. Used by bacteria too, extracted in bound forms by a skimmer and/or granulated activated carbon. It is used up very quickly. Bioavaliability is linked to its binding to organics.

It can also: increase zooxanthelae growth ,give the advantage to macroalgae over nuisance algae and is helpful if a mcaroalge fuge is in use.

It can be toxic in free form if overdosed which is hard to do since most of it binds quickly to organics. It can also encourage nuisance algae growth in some cases.

In general, unless you are harvesting macroalgeor dosing organic carbon and have tested very low levels of iron, I would not recommend dosing it; cetainly not without testing for it. In my case in addition to the macroalge, I grow a lot of bactria from organic carbon dosing and keep N and P low. A test shows near 0 levels even with the small amount of dosing I do. Corals did ok without it but looked slghtly pastel in some cases, a look many strive for but not one I personally consider healthy. So, I chose to grow a little more zooxanthelae via iron dosing. Just a tweak since too much zoox production will brown a coral and may over produce oxygen. I also like the bump to phytoplankton and macroalge.
 
how would I be able to determine wether certain aminos contain organic carbon

They are all organic and if IIRC they all have carbon which links the chains together.

To equate them to vodka and vinegar, first consider dilution ,ie, what % of water is in the supplement being used and how does that % compare to other carbon sources, like ; vinegar which is 95% water and 5% carbon source (acetic acid) or 80 proof vodka which is 60% water and 40% carbon source( ethanol) Thus it takes approximately 8 times as much vinegar as vodka for the same carbon amount .
Sugar or other undiluted sources are factored in at 1 =2.5 vodka or 1=20 vinegar.

Finer tuning can be done by looking at the chemical structure of the particular aminos in a mixed supplemnt to determine the relative amount of C atoms vs H and N in each and in the aggregate as compared to other sources. Personally , I'd just account for dilution variances and settle for that.
 
how would I be able to determine wether certain aminos contain organic carbon

They are all organic and if IIRC they all have carbon which links the chains together.

To equate them to vodka and vinegar, first consider dilution ,ie, what % of water is in the supplement being used and how does that % compare to other carbon sources, like ; vinegar which is 95% water and 5% carbon source (acetic acid) or 80 proof vodka which is 60% water and 40% carbon source( ethanol) Thus it takes approximately 8 times as much vinegar as vodka for the same carbon amount .
Sugar or other undiluted sources are factored in at 1 =2.5 vodka or 1=20 vinegar.

Finer tuning can be done by looking at the chemical structure of the particular aminos in a mixed supplemnt to determine the relative amount of C atoms vs H and N in each and in the aggregate as compared to other sources. Personally , I'd just account for dilution variances and settle for that.

You are correct that all amino acids contain carbon, both in the bonds that link them together (if they are small peptides) and in the actual structure of the amino acids (either in peptides or as free AA). However, it is best to not even consider AA as a carbon source in your aquarium. Their structures are complicated (relative to ethanol, acetic acid, and even glucose), their composition is heterogenous, and they are expensive.

To demonstrate the problem with their compositions being heterogenous, consider the following example. With a carbon source like Ethanol (EtOH), we know that we will always be dosing about 0.5 grams organic carbon per gram ethanol, and that the carbons in each molecule of EtOH are all chemically equivalent (in the same oxidation state, react with the same enzymes, form the same end-products, provide the same energy). However, in the case of amino acids, let's look at what can happen:

The simplest amino acid, glycine, provides about 0.3 grams organic carbon per gram amino acid, and the most complicated (standard) amino acid, tryptophan, supplies .65 grams of carbon per gram of amino acid, a more than 2 fold difference. However, the real disparity comes in the chemical heterogeneity of these carbons. Between amino acids, the carbons come in such different forms, bonded in many different ways, and will be metabolized by different proteins, may even be used for different purposes (protein synthesis versus energy for example) and provide different amounts of energy to the bacteria, if that particular amino acid can be used for energy in that particular bacteria at all. This makes it difficult if not impossible in a home-aquarium setting to adequately calculate for the carbon dose coming from amino acids.

Also, although bacteria can use some amino acids as a carbon source, many bacteria are restricted with regard those aa that they can use for energy production, and I honestly don't know if that information is known with the kind of bacteria we try to grow in our aquariums with carbon dosing (note, almost any organism can use most AA for protein synthesis, not so for energy production). There is also a lot more known about the simpler carbon sources used in reef aquariums from a practical standpoint, and many people have used them with great success, no reason to reinvent the wheel.

Therefore, IMO, if you want to carbon dose, stick with a simple molecule like ethanol, vinegar, or even a polymeric form like poly-hydroxyalkanoates (the stuff they make biopellets out of), and treat AA as a separate entity entirely, preferably not dosing them at all :)
 
I did not mean to suggest that amminos be used in lieu of ethanol or acetic acid . I strongly prefer those simpler forms over even polymers and monomers, since monomers cause trouble for corals .
I don't consider amino acids as a primary organic carbon source at all since they have N , are complicated as you explained. Further the main outcome sought with organic carbon dosing is NO3 and PO4 reduction. So why start with a source that includes N? I've tried them in moderation in the past and as noted earlier I saw no benefit. There is generally no need to dose them and no demonstrated link to coloration .
I agree the calculation for C is difficult if not impossible particularly with commercial blends since they don't tell you what's in them precisely. Nonetheless, they add some extra organic carbon which should be counted /approximated or at least anticipated if they are dosed.
I also don't know which ones are refractory or how corals would take them in.
All in all though I think they may be potentially useful as a nitrogen source without phosphate in rare cases where nitrogen is deficient and limiting. I don't really like the idea of dosing KNO3 as some do. Foods usually approximate Redfield ratio levels including phosphate;organic carbon dosing is skewed toward higher nitrogen removal given the anaerobic activity that occurs. So using some amminos seems logical in this scenario. The extra N could drive more bacteria and more Pi uptake too.
Corals synthesize most of their essential amminos with aspartic acid being a notable exception but should be able to get it from food in most tanks. It looks like a good one to try though.
I don't dose amminos in any form at this time and haven't in years but I am considering dosing some very small amounts of aspartic acid since NO3 is very near zero in my aqauriums and I'd like to see if a little more nitrogen would further enhance PO4 uptake by the facultative heterotrophic bacteria and perhaps the extra aspartate will otherwise benefit certain corals or other reef fauna .
I will subtract for the extra C albeit imprecisely from my ethanol /acetic acid dose to accommodate it and stick to one type, aspartic acid ;maybe adding some glutomic acid later on. Several folks report increased coral growth and health when dosing aspartic acid ,perhaps from the effects of the organic C maybe more directly.
You can get aspartic acid very cheaply from a health food store, like IHerb .com,btw.

This is not a recommendation to dose amminos or use them in lieu of simpler organic carbon sources but there may be a niche or two for certain types , I'm contemplating exploring .
 
Thanks for the clarification. I am curious why you don't like the idea of dosing potassium nitrate though. That would provide the nitrogen our tanks need no? Or perhaps is it because of more toxic intermediates like ammonia (which although toxic at anything but trace concentrations can be used as a nitrogen source, even a preferred one, by many organisms at low concentrations) may provide some benefit?
 
I don't like the K(potassium) ; my tested levels for K are fine. Not too worried about ammonia ; I have plenty of corals and algae to use it but it's so counterintuitive to dose it; I hesitate even though I understand it might work well.. Besides, I'm intrigued a bit to see if aspartic acid is helpful to the organic mix in the system.
 
How about another cation, like sodium, lithium, or how about going with an already high level, consumable ion like calcium or magnesium nitrate? Or even iron nitrate, to really fuel both your macro and zoaxanthelle, but keeping your system phosphate limited?
 
I think sodium nitrate might be a good choice since the extra sodium wouldn't impact much given the 10.500 nsw concentration. Haven't thought aboutthe others.
 
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