Another temp question, just to be sure

[Rafa_Sant]

Hi Dr. Ron

Already read your article about temp and salinity, and searched the forum for temp swings, but I still need to hear it from you. That's because all the LFS in Puerto Rico insist that the ideal temp for some fishes and corals (except for polyps and mushrooms ) is 78F
Now in the winter my temp swings from 80 to 82 F, but in the summer gets up to 85F. Is this OK ?

Can I successfully keep LPS ?

The same rules applies to fishes ?


Thanks and Happy Holidays :celeb2:

Rafa

 

[EdKruzel]

Hey Rafa,
That's pretty much the same problem most reefers have around the world. IMO 85 is about tops, but I have read from the Doc that it's ok.

I guess you only have to worry about adequate circulation and surface agitation. The higher the temp, the faster O2 dissolves.

The more surface agitation the more gas exchange you have and then you have little to worry about.

Good Luck

 

[Adam]

Rafa and Dr. Ron,

PMFJI

With all due respect to the good doctors opinion, there is alot of controversy surrounding this issue. I agree with Ron that coral growth may be greater at higher temps (80-84), and that maintaining such temperatures consistantly will not cause bleaching (sudden rises in temps are implicated in bleaching events).

That said, our aquariums are alot different than the natural reefs. Bulk water movement is nearly non-existant in our tanks, bio-load is high, and our tiny boxes of water are subject to large temp swings if a heater sticks on, a fan stops or a chiller breaks down.

For all of these reasons, I personally choose to maintain my reef aquariums in the 78-80 range, and take particular precautions to prevent temp spikes (a temp controller shuts down my lights if the tem goes over 84). My personal feeling is that I can live with my coral growing a little more slowly to know that pathogens will as well. I also like the safety margin of higher gas solubility if a pump were to fail.

Years of experience by many hobbiests proves that any of the corals that thrive at 82 also thrive at temps in the 78-80 range (and even slightly lower).

Hope this helps.

Adam

 

[saltshop]

Not this crap again!

Originally posted by Adam
With all due respect to the good doctors opinion, there is alot of controversy surrounding this issue.

Hmmm...probably not an opinion but more of a fact based on the past 30+ years of scientific literature dealing with coral physiology, not really much controversy if one can go to the library and read a bit.

I agree with Ron that coral growth may be greater at higher temps (80-84),...

Not "may" but "is" again plenty on that can be found during a quick trip to the library.

(sudden rises in temps are implicated in bleaching events).

Actually, sustained thermal stress and not short term spikes (unless you push 100F) are what cause bleaching events. The NOAA has a nice page on their site that covers "degree heating weeks" that are used to measure the risk of a bleaching event occuring around the globe.

That said, our aquariums are alot different than the natural reefs. Bulk water movement is nearly non-existant in our tanks, bio-load is high, and our tiny boxes of water are subject to large temp swings if a heater sticks on, a fan stops or a chiller breaks down.

Speak for yourself, a well thought out system can provide for almost all of the problems you mention. Bulk water movement can be achieved in a closed system by setting up a "flow tank" or several other options. Bio-load is the caretakers responsibilty and can be kept above or below what would be considered natural. Use multiple small heaters and the risk if one sticks on is pretty minimal same can go for fans. If the tank is kept at natural reef temperatures a chiller break down will most likely not be a big deal and the tank will be able to handle a short term spike without blinking an eye.

My personal feeling is that I can live with my coral growing a little more slowly to know that pathogens will as well.

What pathogens would that be? Can you name even one pathogen that will suddenly attack a coral at 84 versus 78? What happens to the immune system of the coral when you unnaturally slow down its metabolism? Try slowing down your own metabolism and get introduced to even the common cold and then see what happens. Also there are plenty of microbes that are kept on the surface of the coral that protect against attacks from outside forces and you are slowing their metabolism as well making it harder for them to defend their turf increasing the likelihood of an onset of disease.


Years of experience by many hobbiests proves that any of the corals that thrive at 82 also thrive at temps in the 78-80 range (and even slightly lower).

Proves it how? I can beat my dog everyday with a stick and he will still be alive..that proves nothing. The only thing it shows is that they are at least keeping them above their lower thermal limit and they have not died, at least not yet. The coldest known reef has an annual average temperature of 77F so you are almost there. The average of all of the reefs in the world is a nice tidy 82F, which interestingly corresponds to the same 82-84F range that growth and health is maximized.

While I am on a rant here....I need to bring up something that has been bothering me. In one of the worthless babble arguements a while back it was stated that somehow the famed coral researcher and taxonomist J.E.N. Veron did not agree or was sceptical that temperature was responsible for the center of diversity being in the Central Indo-Pacific. I have found that was just a plain lie (as were many other statements). In reading through some of his works, he repeats almost verbatum what was printed in the AF article by Dr. Ron regarding temperature and diversity. Actually he mentions temperatures impact and latitudinal attenuation on diversity probably a good 60 times in "Corals in Space and Time" and also goes on to state that a large percentage of the corals found in the equatorial Indo-Pacific region are not found outside the region simply because the temperature in outreaching places such as Fiji is just too cold for their survival. Sound familiar?

End rant here-

 

[Rafa_Sant]

Happy Holidays everybody,

Sorry, I didn't meant to bring back an old controvertial topic.

I just want to make sure that if I put an LPS ( I love Frogspawn, Elengance or Hammer ) under that temp they will thrive and grow. I don't like things merely surviving in tank.

I currently have some mushrooms, GSP and a toadstool thats still acclimating (less than a week and is almost fully expanded).

What a good LPS for beginners ?


Thanks,

Rafa


PS: Sorry for the typos

 

[Adam]

Rafa,

Sorry to get off topic. IMO, your corals will do great if you maintain them anywhere in the 76 to 84 range as long as you avoid big swings.

Saltshop,

Have you read the literature for yourself? Alot of others have, and have a different interpretation.

Your right, sorry for my semantic error. Growth in many species(until you reach an upper thermal limit) is greater at higher temps.

On the issue of sudden vs. sustained temp rises... Again forgive my semantics. The less the temp rise, the longer it takes to induce bleaching, but more than a couple of degrees can cause bleaching in just a few days.

As far as pathogens.... Human physiology is adapted to a regulated temp, corals are adapted to handle the temp range they are normally subjected to. Of course I am not suggesting that pathogens will suddenly go into overdrive at higher temps, but what basis do you have to suggest that corals will be immuno-supressed at lower temps?

Our tanks..... I agree with everything you said, but how many aquarists do you know that maintain normal or lower than normal stocking levels compared to natural reefs with any true bulk water flow???? Keep in mind the billions of gallons that ebb and flow every tide! Do you surge hundreds of gallons of fresh clean water through your system daily? I sure don't!

Coral growth in captive systems has been documented to be equal (and even greater) than in the wild. This data is several years old, when pretty much no one maintained a reef tank above 80.

As far as Veron's books are concerned... I won't speak about the exact statements made, but in Corals of the World, alot of factors affecting maximum diversity are discussed. Temperature is one, but sunlight and geographical features are also important. If temp is the major factor, why is diversity so much less in the tropical atlantic? It is just as warm as the indo pacific, right? It is because the near surface geological structures aren't there for the corals to grow on. Also, why is diversity not the highest in the Red Sea? It gets warmer there than the central Indo Pacific.

My major problem with this whole debat is that beginners aren't getting the whole story. IMO, telling beginners to maintain reef tanks in the mid 80's is irresonsible. Until one has the experience to know how to recognize and handle problems with their tank, they can use every bit of safety margin they can get. I have been doing this for many years, and I recently had significant losses due to a chiller failure. If my tank had been 84 degrees to begin with, I am absolutely sure I would have had nearly 100% mortality in my tank.

The argument that corals are somehow slowly dying at temps below 80-84 just doesn't hold water. Many aquarists (myself included) have watched a wide variety of corals grow very quickly at temps in the 78 degree range. Why would an animal fighting for it's very life waste energy on growth?

While I am on a rant here..... Even if you do believe that the average (over several years) temperature of all the reefs is 82, how long has it been that way in evolutionary terms?? The data is sketchy for surface seawater temps when you go back more than a few years, but we know that average global temps are up in recent years, so wouldn't it follow that near surface sea water temps would be also. This interestingly corresponds to the increase in bleaching events in the last few years.

The temp in Fiji is too cold for the survival of what??? Sure Fiji may not be a the center of maximum diversity, but it is still quite high. Get out your Veron books, and see what the diversity is in southern Japan, which gets much cooler than the 77 degrees you state as the coldest reef known. It certainly is less than the central indo-pacific, but it is much greater than the tropical east atlantic!

I have a great deal of respect for Dr. Ron in terms of his knowledge of invertabrate biology, and I especially appreciate the time he devotes to the hobby. I happen to respectfully disagree that 82-84 degrees is the ideal temperature for everyone to maintain their reef tank at, even if it is the average temperature on the wild reefs. As hard as we try, we will always have alot of animals crammed into a small body of water, and that demands certain compromises. With experience and top notch husbandry, those temps may be fine, and may even be desireable, but it isn't for everyone or every tank.

I'm done now, and won't post any more in this tread. I just want to make sure that everyone (beginners in particular) know that there are valid arguments for both sides, and that they shouldn't make any choice for their system without knowing the ramifications.

Adam

 

[rshimek]

Hi,

Saltshop [thanks] for the good information.

Reef corals - and all other coral reef animals - will do better at normal coral reef temperatures, these are the temperatures thay have adapted to over millions of years. The average coral reef temperature in the world (of over 1000 reefs) is 82 deg F. These animals loose between 3 and 5 percent of their metabolic capability for each degree F in temperatre drop. So animals living at 78 have lost between 15 and 25 percent of the their capability to cope with stress, etc., because their metabolic rate is slower.

Bleaching may be initiated by sustained temperature (several days to several weeks) several deg F above the maximum temperature that the animals are normally exposed to. If the animals are maintained at 82-84 degrees F. bleaching generally will not occur until the temperatueres exceed 90 deg. F. If the animals are maintained at 78 degrees, F., bleaching will often occur in the low 80's . Maintain your animals at higher temperatures for insurance sake, if nothing else.

While bulk flow water flow is important for organism health, primarily to bring food to the them in a natural manner, for the little colonies we have in our tank, the effect of this versus any temperature variation is likely to be insignificant.

 

[Rafa_Sant]

So, to end this topic once again.
I can keep any coral or fish once it is properly acclimated and cared. Avoiding big temp swings (from 82F to 84F) and providing the proper light and water flow and quality.

Dr. Shimek correct me if I'm wrong and if there any other hint, please let me know.

Hee!! I think I'll give this link:http://www.rshimek.com to every LFS I know. Can't wait to see what they have to say.

Thanks everybody

PS: What the maximun temp swing ?


Rafa

 

[rshimek]

Originally posted by Adam

Adam,

The argument that corals are somehow slowly dying at temps below 80-84 just doesn't hold water. Many aquarists (myself included) have watched a wide variety of corals grow very quickly at temps in the 78 degree range. Why would an animal fighting for it's very life waste energy on growth?

The corals that grow well at low temperatures are primarily species of Pocillopora and Stylopora that have secondary low thermal optima - a secondary growth peak at about 79 to 80 deg. F, in addition to their main growth peak at 84 deg F.

The properties of low temperature mortality are well-known and documented. They happen in all poikilothermic animals and corals are no exception. You may wish to read about them in the reference below.

Prosser, C. L. 1991. Comparative Animal Physiology, 4th ed.. Environmental and metabolic animal physiology. Wiley-Liss, New York, 578 pp.

. Even if you do believe that the average (over several years) temperature of all the reefs is 82, how long has it been that way in evolutionary terms??

The data on average temperatures are available here from measurements of over 1000 reefs compiled before the recent warming events:

Kleypas, J. A., J. W. McManus, and L. A. B. Menez. 1999. Environmental Limits to Coral Reef Development: Where Do We Draw The Line. American Zoologist. 39:146-159.

You may not choose to accept these data, but the scientific community does.

We have good, very precise, data on reef temperatures going back several hundred years, but of course you may choose to ignore those data too.

Lough, J. M. and D. J. Barnes. 1997. Centuries-long records of coral growth on the Great Barrier Reef. Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority Workshop Series. 23:149-157.

Quinn, T. M., T. J. Crowley, F. W. Taylor, C. Henin, P. Joannot and Y. Join. 1998. A multicentury stable isotope record from a New Caledonia coral: interannual and decadal sea surface temperature variability in the southwest Pacific since 1657 A.D. Paleoceanography. 13:412-426.

The data is sketchy for surface seawater temps when you go back more than a few years, but we know that average global temps are up in recent years, so wouldn't it follow that near surface sea water temps would be also.

Nice thought. Wrong. But a nice thought. The data on temperatures and growth rates were all collected prior to the bleaching events.

Evolutionarily, coral reef biologist consider that coral diversity has always shown peaks where the water temperatures have been in the low to mid 80 ranges.

The temp in Fiji is too cold for the survival of what??? Sure Fiji may not be a the center of maximum diversity, but it is still quite high. [b/]

Wrong. Fiji is a cooler reef with significantly lower diversity than areas of good coral growth. Less than 10 percent of the worlds coral species can survive there.

The coolest tropical coral reefs get down to about 60 deg F. for short periods, and the few species of corals that can take that cold a temperature barely eke out survival. Other cool coral reefs, such as Bermuda and Midway, island have plenty of coral individuals, but they have very poor species diversity.

Our corals do not come from these low temperature areas....

 

[rshimek]

Originally posted by Rafa_Sant

Hi Rafa,

PS: What the maximun temp swing ?

It varies with the reefs and the time span you consider. On Johnston atoll SW of Hawaii, a temperature variation of about 30 deg. F. has been measured on the reef flat on a sunny day.

In areas like Fiji, the daily variations are on the order of about 3 to 5 deg. F.

In equatorial regions they tend to be less.

Annual temperature variations also vary with latitude, less in equatorial regions, more in the high latitudes. In places like Fiji, the average monthly temperature varies about 5 to 8 degrees, in Indonesia less so.

 

[saltshop]

Just to wrap this up since Adam is inclined to quit already... Figured I would hit on some of the stuff which Dr. Ron did not cover.

Originally posted by Adam


Have you read the literature for yourself? Alot of others have, and have a different interpretation.

Crazy enough but I actually have read a fair portion of what is on Dr. Ron's site. While some of the references he listed were a little "obscure" when it came to the subject matter at hand some were very good reads and well worth the time. As for the "others" that you speak of if you were to look into it and not take it on faith you will find that the main one in particular has a very annoying habit of stretching and bending the truth whenever he is challenged. This was written in a past debate on this subject:

"including Veron himself, since he is quite skeptical of your theory"

Now lets see what Veron himself "actually thinks" about temperature and its relatedness to biodiversity shall we? These are all from Corals in Space and Time since it is handy and I just re-read the thing for the third time.

"Latitudinal attenuation occurs in the same or similar 'drop-out' sequence in the northrn and southern hemisheres. Latitudinal attenuation is highly correlated with sea surface temperature." pg. 47

"It has long been known that latitudinal range is primarily limited by temperature or correlates of temperature pg. 75

"These data demonstrate that, within Japan, coral species richness can be predicted almost solely from sea surface temperature"...."In the case of central Indo-Pacific latitudinal gradients, this correlation shows that it is temperature and the correlates of temperature, not dispersion capability that is limiting pg. 93

If he is skeptical he sure has a funny way of showing it in his writings. My guess is that the thoughts were passed on to him in a conversation saying something like "Dr. Shimek thinks that ONLY temperature is responsible for diversity banding" or something to that effect that would take the subject out of context to skew the argument.


Your right, sorry for my semantic error. Growth in many species(until you reach an upper thermal limit) is greater at higher temps.

No not "many", but almost all with exception of a few highly tolerant species and some odd-ball deep water species.


As far as Veron's books are concerned... I won't speak about the exact statements made, but in Corals of the World, alot of factors affecting maximum diversity are discussed. Temperature is one, but sunlight and geographical features are also important.

Yes, there are dozens if not more factors that affect diversity and all are important. But a lot of those factors are more regional and local in scale compared to general biodiversity that relates mainly with temperature and surface currents. If you or any other skeptic were to ask Dr. Ron I think you would find he agrees with most of these other factors when it comes to local species diversity be it niche habitats or physical stressors, or whatever you so choose to ask. You cannot however, replace general over-riding factors with localized factors and say that this shows temperature is less important or a non-factor as the two come from different chapters and are best discussed seperately or in conjuction with one another.

If temp is the major factor, why is diversity so much less in the tropical atlantic? It is just as warm as the indo pacific, right?

If you have to ask that one I suggest picking up some texts on biogeography. This is like Biogeography 101 first chapter stuff be it the genetic isolation, human factors, geographic factors, the closing of the Isthmus of Panama..yadda yadda, yadda....

It is because the near surface geological structures aren't there for the corals to grow on.

Actually it has more to do with genetic isolation and the homogeneous structure of the area that has effected speciation.

Also, why is diversity not the highest in the Red Sea? It gets warmer there than the central Indo Pacific.

Again, 101 stuff... The Red Sea has become land locked several times in recent geological history causing mass extinctions from salinity crises more than anything. There is also the matter of the vast nothingness of the Indian Ocean.


The argument that corals are somehow slowly dying at temps below 80-84 just doesn't hold water.

This was the main sticking point originally in the past debates and it is true 100-200 species can live in environments at temperauters below this. Those species that are able to tolerate the lower temps have shown that they indeed can survive grow and even reproduce at those temps. However, there are 300-400 species that cannot survive temperatures below this, or least have not yet to date.


Even if you do believe that the average (over several years) temperature of all the reefs is 82, how long has it been that way in evolutionary terms??

This is not something that you can either believe or dis-believe it is just so. If you choose to ignore facts just to fit whatever your thinking is then so be it.

This interestingly corresponds to the increase in bleaching events in the last few years.

Actually, there is some thoughts that there have been periods of bleaching events ever since the Isthmus of Panama closed seperating the worlds oceans we just weren't paying attention at the time. This has been neither proven or dis-proven so take it FWIW.

The temp in Fiji is too cold for the survival of what???

Approximately 300-400+ species of stoney coral currently cannot or do not survive in the waters of Fiji last I checked.

Get out your Veron books, and see what the diversity is in southern Japan, which gets much cooler than the 77 degrees you state as the coldest reef known.

Japan has the good fortune of having the strongest latitudinal current in the Kuroshio Current which brings warm water (and planulae) north from the center of the Indo-Pacific. Those areas with average temperatures below 77F are not reefal communities but mainly algal reefs with a sparse population of corals.

It certainly is less than the central indo-pacific, but it is much greater than the tropical east atlantic!

Yes, it is greater than the Atlantic because it does not suffer from genetic isolation.

I guess that about sums it up for now.

 

[NaCl]

just for experience

just for experience

submerge yourself in the bathtub-except your head..
-at 'very very warm' water.. take the temperature and
add hot water.. it is amazing how *intolerable* 4 degrees F can be.

 

[dragon0121]

Not sure what the point of the last post was . My tank has a daily temp swing of between 3-5 degrees F. Between 79-83F and occasionally goes to 84F. The growth rates are astounding when my tank is hitting the 83F-84F range. When the weather is temperate and the wife has the house airing out, temp in the house is around 65F :eek2: my tanks will stay in the 79F-81F and during this two month period the growths rates pretty much stop. Granted algea growth also slows down, but getting about $200 store credit every three months from the incredible growth rates of my GSP and Trumpet coral at the higher temps is worth the extra algea harvesting!

 

[Rafa_Sant]

Dragon, your temp swing is the same as mine.

What kind of corals you keep ?

Rafa:fish1:

 

[Dolf]

Hello-
All the debate has made me decide to up the temp to 82. Before I do just one question. I realize that most reefs are in this range, but does Goniporia naturally thrive at this temp, or should I leave the water at the 78-80 mark where it is happy now? I know that this coral is hard to keep and so far have had sucess despite it having been my first or second coral (LFS said it was easy to keep) and putting it through my mistakes as I am learning. I have read somewhere that the aquarium in Hawii has been having good sucess, so I would imagine that the higher temp is good, but I would value an opinion. Thanks.

 

[rshimek]

Hi,

Goniopora are lagoonal corals that generally thrive in warm (84-86 deg F) dirty water. They need a lot of food - mostly small particulate material, but also a lot of dissolved nutrients, and phytoplankton.

It is almost impossible for most aquarists to keep, as their tanks are far too clean. Generally colonies live for about 4-8 months and then die.

You might do a web search and see if you can find a copy of Dr. Rob Toonen's article on keeping this coral.

 

[Dolf]

Thanks- I just got around to reading it now as I have been out of town for a few days. I have heard that they are hard to keep (the LFS told me that it would make a great first or second coral, and I bought it ) My tank is very well fed and no mechanical filteration nor skimmer, so I am keeping my fingers crossed. I have now brought the temp up and maybe that will help it a little as well. I will do the search and see what I come up with. Thanks again!

 

[rshimek]

[arc]

 

[GSB]

This was the main sticking point originally in the past debates and it is true 100-200 species can live in environments at temperauters below this. Those species that are able to tolerate the lower temps have shown that they indeed can survive grow and even reproduce at those temps. However, there are 300-400 species that cannot survive temperatures below this, or least have not yet to date.

Could you direct us to the studies that have shown that 300-400 species cannot survive temperatures below this? In fact, can you show us any sps study that has demonstrated that a single coral cannot survive in 78 degree water?

Regarding your comment about bacteria, in one study corals infected with Vibrio survived in cooler water but succumbed in warmer water, so there is some evidence that corals can handle infection better in cooler water (perhaps because of slower bacteria growth).

gsb

 

[dragon0121]

Approximately 300-400+ species of stoney coral currently cannot or do not survive in the waters of Fiji last I checked

This is from above and it seems to me the point is really easy to understand, diversity does not exist in these colder temperature locations. It has been repeatedly pointed out that scientists believe the studies show that temperature is a key factor in limiting diversity. The real question is, on what scientific basis are you keeping your tank at colder temperatures? Reference all of your literature that shows more diversity and better metabolism rates for more species of corals, that lead to a cooler temperature being better! There is a point at which this just appears to be people resisting change because the old ways are better .