Apogon leptacanthus - Breeding Log

[mwp]

OK - after looking at the muddled mess of all my threads, it's time to reorganize. Since I'm working with 3 cardinalfish species it makes more sense to dedicate a thread to each one. This first post gathers up all the details I have from all the prior threads as well as my notes (stored in the spreadsheet I use to log everything I do on the tank).

Apogon leptacanthus
Common Names: Threadfin Cardinalfish, Blue Eyed Cardinalfish, White Cardinalfish, Ghost Cardinalfish, Blue Streak Cardinalfish, Longspine Cardinalfish, Glass Cardinalfish etc...

Quick synopsis of tank/care/diet etc..

Tank - 24 galllon Nano Cube, stock tank and lighting, only changes is additional aeration (airstone in 2nd chamber) and addition of Purigen.

Co-Inhabitants - 1m/1f Pterapogon kaudernii, 2m/1f Apogon margaritophorus, 1m/1f Synchiropus splendidus, 1m/1f Greenbanded Gobies (I've seen too many different scientific names to know which one to use anymore!), 2 Nemateleotris magnifica (suspected pair of Firefish). This tank is set up as a reef, dominated by Caulerpa sp. and other macro algaes, but also a variety of snails, hermits, a longspine urchin, coral frags etc...

Diet - Frozen Foods include: SF Bay Enriched Brine, SF Bay Spirulina Enriched Brine, Hikari Enriched Brine, Hikari Mysis, Cyclopeze, Formula 1. Occasional Live Foods Include: Live Brine Shrimp, adult and nauplii. Dried foods: they'll take flakes but they're not happy about it (I usually use OSI Spirulina or Tetra Marine Flakes). I periodically soak frozen foods with SELCON. Overall, I'd say the Apogon leptacanthus are some of the most aggressive feeders in the tank...they're little fish with BIG mouths!

Tank Care & Conditions - pH typically 8.2. Temps in upper 70's. Specific Gravity around 1.022 usually. Water changes are 3 gallons, weekly or as needed. All organic levels are very low to nonexistent (i.e. < 1 ppm Nitrate, 0 on the rest). Calcium levels while probably not relevant hover between 350 and 400.

TIMELINE / Synopsis of breeding activity & behavior

11-25-05 - Added 2 Apogon leptacanthus from a group of recently imported wild caught fish (selected smallest and largest, smallest with short fins, largest with very elongated fins. Suspected Male/Female pair...)

11-26-05 - Went back to the LFS and picked up 2 more Apogon leptacanthus, again selecting disparate sizes and fin lengths in the hopes of obtaining a pair.

11-29-05 - the "longest" finned Apogon leptacanthus has yet to take any food. The others are currently only feeding on live brine shrimp.

12-3-05 - the A. leptacanthus that hasn't been feeding is now on his last legs - "he" was humanely euthanized. At this point the others are starting to accept frozen mysis and brine shrimp.

12-15-05 - I first noted "hints" of courtship or pairbonding activity between 2 of the Apogon leptacanthus.

12-18-05 - my notes indicate that it looks likely that we have 2 males & 1 female. 2 fish (one large, one small) have paired up over the last couple days, leaving an "odd man out", another larger fish (suspected male at this point).

12-20-05 - 2nd recording of "intensified" courtship between 2 of the Apogon leptacanthus. A day later video of the activity is posted.

Then there's the Apogon leptacanthus - this is the 2nd time I've caught what appears to be courtship activity. The first time was just a couple days ago, and it really kicked into "high" gear on the same night the Lattice Cardinals spawned....nothing came from the Threadfins though.

From what I can gather, my A. leptacanthus group has turned out to be 2m/1f as the smallest, shortest finned fish spends most of it's time with the largest, longest finned fish and is displaying to him, but I've also caught her displaying to the "middle" fish...aha - another male...at least that's how it seems. Like their coloration, it appears their courtship behavior is a bit more subdued than the other cardinalfish in the tank. The female will come out in front of the male, display her flank and puff out her throat. Then she'll circle around and come back to the males side. Once in a while she'll nudge him (just like the Lattice Cardinals), occasionally he'll give her a nip around her "butt" as well. Of special note, the females fins have become tipped in blue this evening, and in general the amount and intesity of the blue coloration has risen in ALL THREE of the A. leptacanthus.

Alrighty, I've gone through and selected about 4 minutes worth of video of the Courtship/Pair Bonding activity of the Apogon leptacanthus this past evening. If you haven't looked at the A. margaritophorus vids yet, watch those first, and then watch these. The similarities are unmistakeable! Flash video as before - average file size 12 mb.

(they're going up to the server now...the links should work by morning).

http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/a_leptacanthus_12-20-05_pair_vid1.html

http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/a_leptacanthus_12-20-05_pair_vid2.html

http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/a_leptacanthus_12-20-05_pair_vid3.html

http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/a_leptacanthus_12-20-05_pair_vid4.html

FWIW,

MP

12-30-05 - The Apogon leptacanthus were courting in their "subdued" way but did not spawn.

2-3-06 - FIRST SPAWNING of Apogon leptacanthus somewhere between 9:30 and 10:45 PM. Turns out I had the sexes in the "pair" reversed. The larger, more colorful and longer finned fish (which behaves as the dominant fish in the group of 3) is a FEMALE. The smallest fish, with shorter fins and less intense coloration, is the male who is now holding! I was able to post additional observations and videos:

These next two vids are of courtship. Again, up until this first spawn I believed I had 2 males and 1 female. Well, what I THOUGHT was the male courting I should have known better...the larger fish with longer fins shown in this video is the FEMALE. She is courting the smallest one in our group of 3, who turned out to be a MALE?! As far as sexual dimorphism goes, this is kinda backwards from most, but it could simply be based on limited mate availability in this captive situation.

There's a couple really important behaviors to watch for. The first is the side-by-side twitching which seems to be common amoung all three of the cardinalfish species we've spawned. In this particular case, the female "flicks" her fins much like a Firefish normally does when swimming. There is no discernable "vibrations" (like what you see in Pterapogon kauderii).

The other behavior that is NEW is the "soar" for lack of a better term. I've seen throat bulging, side-by-side twitching, and nudging go on between this pair of fish on numerous occasions. However, I have not seen the "soar". In both videos it occurs towards the end, the female making broad circles out in front of the male. My earlier description I inverted the "fins" - the female clamps all fins on her ventral side while leaving the dorsal fins semi erect. It's wierd, but it seems like she's trying to show off her big fat belly to the male.

Also, note that in these vids, the belly is distended (a common sign that spawning is IMMINENT in the next couple hours). It appears that her ovipositor has dropped. Unfortunately, I don't have an exact spawning time on these guys...it was an afternoon event and well, we went out for dinner! Next time maybe.

Without further delay, 2 vids of pre-spawn courtship behavior in Apogon leptacanthus!

http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/2-3-06_threadfin_soar1.html

http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/2-3-06_threadfin_soar2.html

And what the heck, the proof that this wasn't just pair-bonding or aggression, here's the male with the female (as well as a brief start with the "spare" fish). Look at the mouthful of eggs!

http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/2-3-06_threadfin_postspawn.html

Next up, one of the best pics I've gotten in the former "clam" tank - the pair of Bangers and the pair of Threadfins, both with mouthbrooding males.

2-11-05 - earlier in the day, I shot some pics of the male mouthbrooding.

Male Apogon leptacanthus, on the evening of the 8th day post spawning.

Just before midnight (about 30 minutes after light out, 11:45 PM) the male Apogon leptacanthus releases live larvae. That's 8 days from spawning to release. Many of the larvae ended up dead. That night I shot some larval images.

3 images of newly released Apogon leptacanthus larvae. Did the best I could - these were shot by collecting a viable larvae, placing on a microscope slide resting atop a LED flashlight, with the macro mode of a Nikon CP5700. Best I can do for now folks! These images have only been retouched for contrast and levels...nothing else "tweaked" here!

I'd say all told we have maybe 5-10 viable larvae to work with...the rest look all bent up and dead, most likely a result from trying to harvest with a brine shrimp net. A FEW were cupped out early on and well, the numbers definitely correlate to those caught by cupping vs. netting.

LESSON LEARNED - don't use a net, cup 'em out or siphon them or something...their little bodies are just too fragile!

2-12-06 - Looks like we have about 10 viable larvae:

We're now 12 hours in with 9-10 viable larvae from this first spawn of Apogon leptacanthus. They are in a large specimen cup, hanging in the parents tank, roughly 1/2 gallon in volume. Aeration is going at a few bubbles per second.

This morning I cleaned out all the dead larvae (around 30-40) - again, it looks as though they were damaged by being transfered with the brine shrimp net.

I introduced 25 ML from a Nannochloris culture and 10 ML from a Tetraselmis culture. My first shot at Isocrysis didn't work, so that culture just got restarted yesterday. Nannochloropsus only got started yesterday as well, so we're not ready for that either.

I also added some L-Strain rotifers...not tons, but a fair amount. So far, the rotifers look just a little bit "too large" for these little guys, and NO feeding activity has been observed. Granted, when the hatched out MOST larvae had a little bit of a yolk salk still being absorbed, so they may not be ready for feeding quite yet.

Wish us TONS of luck...I'd love to raise up a half dozen of these...that'd be plenty success for me!

2-13-06 - No additional larval deaths. Things don't look "great", but at least they're still alive:

Just about 48 hours in an I can't say we've had any additional deaths in the larvae! I've added more Tetraselmis & Nannochloris along with a very limited dosing of Nannochloropsus (that culture is still in the "early" phases but I figured it couldn't hurt).

I'd say there's really "2 sets" of larvae. One small group (3-4) hang out at the opposite end of the specimen cup from the air-feed. For the most part they rest on the bottom, occasionally swimming around. They appear to be feeding, as their guts are "rounded" behind the eyes. I have high hopes for these courageous little fish.

The other 6-7 also spend most of their time on the bottom. These guys however have "attitude" control issues. When not on the bottom, the float around, listless at ANY orientation, occasionally righting themselves. If they get caught up in the current from the air-feed, they seem to get very dissoriented. Some of these larvae are "larger" than the first set but appear skinny.

ALL of the larvae spend the majority of their time "wallowing" in the bottom gunk. They are usually upright on the bottom, although sometimes one can be seen lying on it's side. All larvae, to varying degrees of frequency, make lunging/smashing juts at the bottom - it looks like feeding in a larger grazing fish....

I'm hesitant to sample any of the larvae at this point for fear of accidently killing them (but may give one of the "free floaters a look"...9-10 isn't much to work with, but we're about ready to tie the "goby larvae" record for survival in the same setup...an no deaths beyond those initial ones at collection (when we experienced heavy mortality).

FWIW, I did take out one of the free floaters and looked at him under 10X...the gut (area behind and underneath the "air bubble" swim bladder) has a bronze-green tint to it.....got a nice big mouth too, but still looks too small for the rotifers that were in the sample. So maybe these guys are feeding on the various Phyto's I've been adding in?

2-14-06 - Still no deaths and things look better:

We're now well into the third day! Lights came on this morning, the little larvae "woke up" and started smashing the bottom (feeding?). Added in more Tetraslemis and Nannochloris, + the Nannochloropsus is now at 2 mil/ML so I figured "what the heck" and added more of that as well. If only the Isocrysis would kick in...then they'd have a fully diverse algae soup to grow in. Added some more rotifers as well - rotifers from one of the cultures looked "smaller" under 10X...if so, they'd be IDEAL food for these guys.

Less "free floaters" today as well...more and more are starting to get in the grove and forage in the gunk on the bottom of the specimen cup. These developments make it all the more likely that the goby babies aren't getting FOOD whereas the cardinalfish larvae, being just a touch bigger, can handle it. We should have a hatch tonight or tomorrow on the gobies...anyone in Chicago want to try raising 'em?

Which brings us to the present. I'll post all future developments with our Apogon leptacanthus in this thread!

MP

 

[BrianPlankis]

Great thread and reorganization. Looking forward to more updates!

 

[mwp]

Well, at the end of day 3 things don't look good. Granted, it IS late in the evening, well past the normal "bed time". A few larvae were casually DRIFTING (aka. "Free Floating") through the water column, while the rest are on the bottom, not really moving. They're definitely still ALIVE but not very active.

In the event that they exhausted the food supply, I added more of "everything" this evening from all 4 types of Phyto I have in culture + more Rotifers AND I harvested from one of our "Tiggerpod" cultures - mostly rotifers but there may be some copepod nauplii stages mixed in.

Hopefully the larvae just "went to bed" early...I guess we'll find out in the morning.

Matt

 

[mwp]

At the start of day 4 things look BLEAK. I pulled out at least 8 little bodies today; there is one larvae still actively swimming around, plus at least 1 or 2 more that are still alive (checked at 10X) but are resting on the bottom. A water test showed slightly elevated levels of nitrite (<0.25 ppm) so a few drops of prime were added to the 1/2 gallon cup. I also changed 1/4 of the specimen cups volume and added 55 ML of Nannochloris. I only NEED to raise one..so keep the faith!!!

MP

 

[spk]

Good luck with this. Wathing with Interest.
Steve

 

[mwp]

Thanks Steve. LUCK is definitely going to play a factor here!

Well it's now the end of day four / the beginning of day 5! I still have one or maybe two viable larvae cruising around. Far cry from the original 10 viable larvae we started with, and likely due to some mismanagement of rearing them in such a small environment (aka. earlier nitrite spike). At the moment, with so few larvae and so many rotifers, copepods and phytoplankton running around, I think I can just sit back and keep the faith...not much else to do!!! They don't appear to be growing much at all...not a good sign in my book but then again, I look at these little guys all the freakin' time. I'll proclaim a small victory when I finally get to see one hunt down and EAT a rotifer!

FWIW,

MP

 

[David M]

This is very cool indeed, I have a group of 9 bluestreaks in a 40 gallon tank with a pair of seahorses and one small ocellaris clownfish. They breed constantly ( I see males holding) but I have never seen a larvae and have made no attempt to capture any yet. I need to make some changes to the set up like modify the overflow or just shut off the supply pump at lights out. It's on my "to do" list Since I can't tell one fish from another I have no idea what the frequency of spawning is, if the pairs are manogomous or what. They are a group (schooling) so I don't think they are pair bonded but I really can't say for sure. I don't even know how many of each sex there are.

Please post at the next spawn so I can get a better idea of the frequency. Maybe I can find some time to try working with these guys, keep the log going and I will try to add to it if I get anywhere.

 

[David M]

BTW, you don't mention anything about the bangaii's, is there another log/ thread?

 

[mwp]

Hey David, I'm working up a thread for Apogon margaritophorus next, and THEN the bangaii's - there's so much documentation on them already that it's not a priority in my book, especially since the first three spawns have failed.

It's now MID-way through Day 5 - I have ONE remaining larvae that's still alive but just barely. The little guy is just floating around the tank, barely moving, not feeding on the bottom, just overall looking "out of it". I think 5 days is gonna be it for these guys this first time around...

MP

 

[mwp]

Earlier this evening, halfway through Day 5, the last larvae was determined to be dead. So 4.5 days is our current record to beat next time around.

So far I attribute MUCH of our failures to having inadequate rearing containers - sometime in March that will FINALLY change. This is probably all the activity from our Apogon leptacanthus, at least for a little while.

MP

 

[mwp]

2-20-06 - the one day I work at the actual office, I come home around 9:00 PM am find a nice surprise - we've had our 2nd spawning of Apogon leptacanthus. It's been a window of 17 days since their last spawn!

Really sucks that right around the time they'll be ready to come out I'm supposed to be moving all the tanks!

MP

 

[mwp]

It's around 3:30 PM, central time, 2-21-06. It appears as though this spawn may not have been the same "pairing" as our first spawn. In fact, we may indeed have 1 male and 2 females as I recently started to suspect.

This time around, the long-standing "alpha" fish, the female from the first spawn, appears to be the odd man out. The other "unknown" fish is REALLY fired up and is chasing her around. The male, with his SMALLER-than-the-first-spawn mouthful, is now displaying and hanging with the 'unknown' fish. SO...it would appear to be that our 2nd spawning was the same male and our original "odd man out", likely another female. So perhaps this 17 day window isn't entirely accurate considering that it likely looks that this 2nd spawn was NOT the first pair, but a 2nd pairing. Kinda throws a whole different wrench in the works when there's 2 females and 1 male, at least in figuring out how often they'll repeatedly spawn!

FWIW,

MP

 

[Peter Schmiedel]

Based on my observations the females are guarding their males. So the one who hangs out with the breeding should be a female. The behavior is better to see if you have more fish. They all seem to built up pairs. I can observe that with leptacanthus and magriphorus, but not with my pyjama cardinals.

 

[mwp]

Peter! Indeed, that is the behavior I am observing with my three leptacanthus. The female DOES seem to guard the male.

Now that you bring it up, it does seem to happen with my 1f/2m A. margaritophorus, but only for the first 24 hours or so. By then, the female seems to be off doing her own thing.

In contrast, we're now getting into our 5 day, and the temporary "pair bond" that's been set up between our secondary "mystery" fish (again, very likely female) and the male is still intact.

Peter, have you had any luck RAISING any Apogon leptacanthus, or for that matter A. margaritophorus? If so, any additional insights would be helpful on my attempts at batch #2!

Thanks!

Matt

 

[mwp]

2-26-06 - - we're now 6 days in and the 2nd brood is still being held by the male. The eggs have eyed up (you can see the little reflections every time the male takes a "Breath"). I'm contemplating catching and separating the brooding male in a breeder net - within the next 48-60 hours the larvae should be released and I'd like to have more than 10 to work with this time around Thoughts?

MP

 

[mwp]

2-28/3-1-06 - Talk about a TON of larvae. I chased the brooding male around the tank today trying to catch him to strip the larvae. Well, after several missed attempts, he spit the egg mass which got caught in a frond of caulerpa. I gently netted it with the brine shrimp net (a regular net would just pass larvae right through it) - kept it submerged and VERY gently transferred the mass into a large specimen cup. There it sat. More or less CUP shaped, not really a round ball, but rather a shape that could be flat but was rolled up into a cup.

Well, I brought a rigid airline close to the mass to keep circulation going and the babies started shooting off the mass like popcorn! I got it on vid and will post it in the next day or two.

I'm going back to the mass to stimulate more "hatching" but hey, we already have AT LEAST 30-40 viable larvae and the egg mass is still very large - there are easily 200-300 larvae in there.

More soon!

MP

 

[mwp]

Alrighty, I turned the lights out thinking that would further stimulate hatching (as the fry appeared about 30 minutes after lights out the last time). Well, it may have helped a little. Heavier agitation (by rapidly waving a rigid airtube about 1 cm above the egg mass) seemed to stimulate hatching...I suspect that in natural hatchings (as our first one) the male must chew and stir the egg mass repeatedly to promote hatching. We have maybe 100 larvae running around now with potentially many more on the way tonight. I added 50 ML Nannochloropsus (cultured at a density of 8.8 mil/ML).

Those fry that hatched with the lights on all exhibited the same behavior..they'd "pop" from the mass, shooting out at least 1 cm, pause, then rapidly swim to the surface. Those hatching after lights out didn't appear to swim for the surface like their "daylight" brothers and sisters. Overall though, if and once a larvae makes the initial trip to the surface, it quickly returns to the water column or bottom. One thing seems certian - they shun light (negatively phototrophic). Perhaps HIDING places in the 0.5 gallon rearing container (clear specimen cup) might be in order?

ALSO, it's time to take a risk - I have some black plastic bags that I'm going to rinse thorougly and place around the container's outside. Not sure how these will withstand saltwater, but it's the only way I can think of to "shade" the sidesn and bottom of the rearing container, unless anyone has a better idea?!

Still hatchin' away!

MP

 

[mwp]

Well, I honestly think it looks like a fair amount of the egg mass has DIED...or maybe they're just not quite ready to hatch. I positioned the mass near the air outlet so that with each bubble the mass jiggles gently, just a touch. I fully admit now that this was 'NOT' the original plan...the plan was to catch and strip...granted looking back now that would have failed too. A better route for spawn #3 (when it happens) will be to simply isolate the brooding male in a breeder net. Judging by how quickly he spat the mass when being pursued, I either need to be quicker with the nets OR catch him earlier on.

Anyways, that's more or less an 8 day brood time again on this species. MAYBE this one might have gone 9 days though?

In addition to the earlier 50 ML Nannochloropsus, I've also added 50 ML Nannochloris (24.8 mil/ML density) and 25 ML Tetraselmis (checked the density on the 26th at 1.2 mil/ML).

I'm bummed that this all happened when it did (tank teardowns may start as early as Friday) but I'm HOPING I can move the larvae and be OK. Currently I don't have any way to sterlize water for my Phyto cultures, so these cultures may be a bit past prime (everything is due/overdue for a major 50-75% harvest and refill with f/2 culture water). I may have "overdone it" on the initial dose of phyto to the larval tank; we'll see.

The record to beat is 5 DAYS.

Matt

 

[mwp]

One last thought for the night and I'm off to bed!

After the move, I'll likely be able to add 2 10 gallons to the aresenal. Had this happened in the future, I likely would have just set the egg mass up in a tumbler to hatch 'em out. Probably would've worked REALLY WELL. I'm sure sometime in the future we'll find out!

MP

 

[Peter Schmiedel]

Matt,

sorry for late reply but I am on business. First Barcelona now Paris. I am a newbie in breeding and glad that my first two Premnas baybies made it. I keep severla cardinal species and all spawn regularly. I will not give it a try before I made it to get several batches of anemin fish to adult size. Dont want to over estimate my talent