Are ball valves ok to use on return lines?

You made the argument it doesn't make a difference, now it's 50%, what about 40%, regardless of the resistance more power more heat less life.


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What particular argument are you talking about? If you throttle down your pump 50% it is twice as big as it need to be. If you by pass 50% of the flow it is twice as big as it needs to be. I said putting some restriction in the line is fine as long as it does not go to more than 50%, because then you run the risk of not getting enough flow to cool the pump adequately.

What point are you trying to make by twisting around what I said?
 
Simple hydraulic rule pressure is the resistance to flow. The impeller will not freewheel when under pressure, meaning it needs current(energy) to push past the resistance, like going up a hill in your car vs coasting on level ground. If you are always going up hill you use more energy to go the same distance.


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Hydraulic power is a function of flow and pressure, not just pressure. Depending on the arrangement you might be using more power to run a bypass.

P=(QHS)/(3960E)
Q- gpm
H - ft
S - specific gravity
E - efficiency
P - power in Hp
 
Simple hydraulic rule pressure is the resistance to flow. The impeller will not freewheel when under pressure, meaning it needs current(energy) to push past the resistance, like going up a hill in your car vs coasting on level ground. If you are always going up hill you use more energy to go the same distance.


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So it takes no power to pump the bypassed flow?
 
What particular argument are you talking about? If you throttle down your pump 50% it is twice as big as it need to be. If you by pass 50% of the flow it is twice as big as it needs to be. I said putting some restriction in the line is fine as long as it does not go to more than 50%, because then you run the risk of not getting enough flow to cool the pump adequately.



What point are you trying to make by twisting around what I said?



Ask yourself that question. I said to run a bypass to save energy and increase pump life you found it necessary to start the corrections


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So it takes no power to pump the bypassed flow?



Depends on height and flow. e.g. If the pump was 4 ft head pressure and the use case needed 400gph but capable of 500gph dropping 150gph to 0 head may actually use less power than no bypass


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Hydraulic power is a function of flow and pressure, not just pressure. Depending on the arrangement you might be using more power to run a bypass.



P=(QHS)/(3960E)

Q- gpm

H - ft

S - specific gravity

E - efficiency

P - power in Hp



Power is flow, pressure is torque.


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What kind of a question is that? Where are you getting your information? Take it out of the form PM I'm done wasting other people's time reading this.


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I am a degreed mechanical engineer with 20 years experience. I spent a chunk of my career designing, building and testing centrifugal pumps. I have also designed hydraulic systems far more complex than our fish tanks.

Please do not confuse your internet searches with that.
 
Listen to Wazzel, he knows what he is talking about. Im not a mechanical engineer but I do deal with a lot of pumps and it is a known fact that valving down a pump decreases the amp draw. Actually some types of pumps need backpressure and won't last nearly as long if they are run without some.
 
I am a degreed mechanical engineer with 20 years experience. I spent a chunk of my career designing, building and testing centrifugal pumps. I have also designed hydraulic systems far more complex than our fish tanks.



Please do not confuse your internet searches with that.



Great whose ?? Is bigger??? I design multi megawatt data centers with 1000hp chiller farms and an EE, now what?


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Great whose ?? Is bigger??? I design multi megawatt data centers with 1000hp chiller farms and an EE, now what?


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I think you need a nap. If you know what you are talking about take the effort to explain it. Being the loudest or most aggressive does not give you more credibility.
 
I think you need a nap. If you know what you are talking about take the effort to explain it. Being the loudest or most aggressive does not give you more credibility.



Sorry everyone else I PMd I will not post any more public responses


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Listen to Wazzel, he knows what he is talking about. Im not a mechanical engineer but I do deal with a lot of pumps and it is a known fact that valving down a pump decreases the amp draw. Actually some types of pumps need backpressure and won't last nearly as long if they are run without some.



It's a bit frustrating when I post a suggestion and someone (in this case Wazzel) says NOPE, might as well said hey dummy you don't know what you're talking about. I'm not going to respond to more of his posts. I will try to respond to yours, so you have a little more information or another point of view.

This link is a bit deep, but, does a pretty good job of explaining the dynamics of multiple different water pump technology.
http://www.pumped101.com/efficiency.pdf

Take note that it's very general, but, the pumps used in our tanks are not FREQ drive (VHD), meaning that their RPM is derived from utility power 60hz, the impeller design is usually optimized at about 6' some less some more. So, when you use a ball valve it artificially increases head pressure (often beyond optimal design), and therefore reduces the pump life and will ALWAYS use more energy.

I will agree there may be some pump manufacturers that do a poor job of QC and would allow a free-flowing pump to overspend causing damage, but, I would hope this would be the exception not the rule.

If you reference the article or most any pump manufacturer's flow graph, you will see a sweet spot (peak efficiency). Again in aquariums, this I have found to be about 4-6 ' where there is some loss of flow, but, substantially less than 50%. This matches the typical PEAK EFFICIENCY of a pumps design. So.... If you need 60 or 70% of the capacity of the pump to meet your needs, and you add a ball valve, you push the envelope of low efficiency. Much like any machine, they are designed to run at a higher capacity than required, but, they use more energy, create more heat and therefore don't last as long.

The above said, the opposite is true, if the design is for 4-6 ' and you run it at 1' flow will be maxed out with LESS actual work being done and a different pump would be a better choice. Damage, maybe on cheap bearings, irregular windings, things of generally poor quality equipment.

So... Look at our user Mag 700, let's assume 5' HP
https://www.google.com/search?q=mag...aquarium+pump+700+curve&imgrc=QkJFJWhYJPFKzM:

He has max about 400gph, which means 100% capacity, if you reference the 1st link, you will see efficiency is the worst at this rate, so why restrict it to 300gph and hold that bottom of the curve, relieve the pressure back to the sump, move left of the power curve, draw less wattage, make less heat and get the same results.

Now... If his goal was 100gph, you would already be to the left of the EFFICIENCY curve and additional pressure may (I still have trouble with this, because it has to ASSUME bad quality parts) allow the pump to last longer. Now even with a concession of it lasting longer, it will still (likely based on constant speed which is known and impeller design which is unknown) take more ENERGY (watt hours) to push 200gph than 100gph to 5'. It may be very minor, but, I promise unless the impeller has SEVERE cavitation the energy will be more.

Hope this helps get a different scientific explanation on why a simple restrictor on a semi-reasonably sized pump, is not better than a relief.


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Melev's Reef states:



"To avoid too much flow to your tank, in case your pump is too powerful, you can put a "tee" in your return plumbing, and an elbow pointing straight back down into your sump. Then you put a ball valve on that. If the valve is wide open, the majority of your water will go straight back into your sump. The more you close the valve, the more water goes up to the tank. This is the best system, because your pump will never feel a restriction and it won't shorten the lifespan of your pump."



http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html



Example (Mag 9.5 pump):

10_zpsa2irb05d.jpg




Some pumps are designed where restriction will not affect the lifespan of the device...I do not believe the AquaMag types are one of those.



HTH. :bigeyes:



+1
This is the way to do it!!!


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One thing to think about if you are going to use a "tee" and why I advise against it.

If your pump can out produce what your return system can handle when the pump is unrestricted if this tee becomes clogged now your tank level will start to rise.

Now if this leads to a overflowing tank or a cavateing pump depends on your sump water level.

Because of this I do not recommend using the "tee" option unless your tank can handle full pump output with no issues and you already stated it can not.

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One thing to think about if you are going to use a "tee" and why I advise against it.

If your pump can out produce what your return system can handle when the pump is unrestricted if this tee becomes clogged now your tank level will start to rise.

Now if this leads to a overflowing tank or a cavateing pump depends on your sump water level.

Because of this I do not recommend using the "tee" option unless your tank can handle full pump output with no issues and you already stated it can not.

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I guess the same could happen to a manifold if it were to get clogged, yet a manifold with several outlets would require a larger pump than just the tank's overflow capacity, yes?
 
Here is what Reeflo says about restricting output.

CAN I VALVE BACK THE OUTPUT TO REDUCE FLOW?
There is no problem closing down the discharge-it actually makes the motors run slightly more efficiently and cuts a few watts off-however if you cut it back by more than 1/3 you should consider a smaller impeller (just like downshifting gears) to save significant wattage.
 
Here is a typical centrifugal pump curve. As you can see power goes up with increasing flow, not pressure. Not sure what in the design of our aquarium pumps would make them behave differently than other centrifugal pumps.

If you have a properly sized pump a simple valve is all you need. The little bit of extra restriction is not going to matter. If the pump is significantly oversized a bypass line is better, mostly due to getting enough flow though the pump to cool it adequately. If you need to use a bypass line then you should look at getting a smaller pump, unless you are keeping the reserve capacity for future use.

Sorry I hurt you feelings, but you are not correct.

single-line-pump-curve-2.jpg
 
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