ATO and return questions???

[CedzAquAddictio]

Yeah Man. The overflow is your culprit. I've dealt with over-the-top or HOB overflows before. Normally there is a small reservoir attached to the top of them to act as a baffle for small fluctuations which you don't have. You are running a direct full siphon and it seems like the pipes are the same size for your return and drain with more restrictions on the drain as it enters the sump. In essence, it seems that your drain relies on sucking the water out instead of the water draining into it. Kind of a sticky situation that will probably lead to a nasty flood from your DT or sump (probably the DT in this case). You are basically pumping in water faster than it is able to drain it.

Here's what we have to remember. Your return is being fed by a pump, and your drain is not. Therefore your drain must be able to handle what the return pump puts out and more. This often leads to larger drain piping.

Bottom line: With that setup, it may not ever become balanced. You will have to keep your underperforming drain matched EXACTLY to the return pump, and there can never be any changes in flow, pressure, etc (which occurs daily if not hourly as bacteria builds up).

If you can, drill into the back of your tank, and plumb the drain like they do in the fish stores. This will require larger plumbing, but will be safer and will give the air somewhere to go as well.
If drilling isn't an option and you want to stay DIY, Google durso overflow, and check out that design.

Best of luck and keep us posted...

 

[CedzAquAddictio]

I just checked out your other videos, and it looks like you have a durso overflow already. It was hard to tell from the one you posted.

If you rebuild it with larger piping, and use PVC instead of flex hose for your 90 degree angles, I believe you will be in good shape. Those flex pipes probably aren't making for good consistent flow around the corners.

 

[D-Nak]

no there is a pump that sucks the air out, the line that goes to the pump is at the top of the drain pipes..

Ah sorry, I see it now.

again I don't believe my issue is with my drain line..its the amount of flow going back into the tank..now if the drain is not consistant that I could see where that would be part of the issue..

As others have mentioned, the problem with most likely with the drain. You've got a 90 degree elbow, which is then attached to flexible pipe that enters the sump. This further reduces flow. Keep in mind that a drain is gravity fed, while the return is pushed by the pump. When the pipes are the same size, this means that more water is flowing through the return than what's able to drain via gravity into the sump. You'll need to reduce your return flow a lot to reach equilibrium.

You're pushing more water through the overflow than it can handle in an air/water system. It is osculating between an air/water drain and a full siphon drain. Two solutions are to increase the size of the drain or decrease the flow into the tank. The first one gets you more flow, the second is easier to implement.

Good Luck,

I think this solution is correct, but I don't think your assessment of the problem is correct. This set up -- at least what I see in the video -- is simply a full siphon system. Once the air is removed, there is no air left in the tube, so it's technically not an air/water system like a durso or stockman.

Yeah Man. The overflow is your culprit. I've dealt with over-the-top or HOB overflows before. Normally there is a small reservoir attached to the top of them to act as a baffle for small fluctuations which you don't have. You are running a direct full siphon and it seems like the pipes are the same size for your return and drain with more restrictions on the drain as it enters the sump. In essence, it seems that your drain relies on sucking the water out instead of the water draining into it. Kind of a sticky situation that will probably lead to a nasty flood from your DT or sump (probably the DT in this case). You are basically pumping in water faster than it is able to drain it.

Here's what we have to remember. Your return is being fed by a pump, and your drain is not. Therefore your drain must be able to handle what the return pump puts out and more. This often leads to larger drain piping.

Bottom line: With that setup, it may not ever become balanced. You will have to keep your underperforming drain matched EXACTLY to the return pump, and there can never be any changes in flow, pressure, etc (which occurs daily if not hourly as bacteria builds up).

If you can, drill into the back of your tank, and plumb the drain like they do in the fish stores. This will require larger plumbing, but will be safer and will give the air somewhere to go as well.
If drilling isn't an option and you want to stay DIY, Google durso overflow, and check out that design.

Best of luck and keep us posted...

EXACTLY. If you bump up your drain to 1" or better yet 1.5" and drill it through the back of your tank, your problem should go away. The ideal set up would a HOB overflow box or one that works through the tank like what they sell at glass-holes.com (this is actually best because is doesn't rely on siphon tubes).

I just checked out your other videos, and it looks like you have a durso overflow already. It was hard to tell from the one you posted.

If you rebuild it with larger piping, and use PVC instead of flex hose for your 90 degree angles, I believe you will be in good shape. Those flex pipes probably aren't making for good consistent flow around the corners.

I don't see the durso on this current system based on the video. Maybe you can post a video of the entire drain, showing us what it looks like in the tank, on the back of the tank, and how it moves into the sump?

 

[CedzAquAddictio]

Ah sorry, I see it now.



As others have mentioned, the problem with most likely with the drain. You've got a 90 degree elbow, which is then attached to flexible pipe that enters the sump. This further reduces flow. Keep in mind that a drain is gravity fed, while the return is pushed by the pump. When the pipes are the same size, this means that more water is flowing through the return than what's able to drain via gravity into the sump. You'll need to reduce your return flow a lot to reach equilibrium.



I think this solution is correct, but I don't think your assessment of the problem is correct. This set up -- at least what I see in the video -- is simply a full siphon system. Once the air is removed, there is no air left in the tube, so it's technically not an air/water system like a durso or stockman.



EXACTLY. If you bump up your drain to 1" or better yet 1.5" and drill it through the back of your tank, your problem should go away. The ideal set up would a HOB overflow box or one that works through the tank like what they sell at glass-holes.com (this is actually best because is doesn't rely on siphon tubes).

OP: There's your answer...

I don't see the durso on this current system based on the video. Maybe you can post a video of the entire drain, showing us what it looks like in the tank, on the back of the tank, and how it moves into the sump?

Here is a link that I viewed that gave me more insight. I honestly just thought there was a hose sucking water from the first vid. You can see more detail of his drain here...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfryCrshmpo

 

[D-Nak]

OP: There's your answer...



Here is a link that I viewed that gave me more insight. I honestly just thought there was a hose sucking water from the first vid. You can see more detail of his drain here...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfryCrshmpo

I just watched that video, and I still don't understand how the overflow is set up. To the left of what I thought was the drain line, I see a surface skimmer of some sort with a flat guard on it. If this is the drain, it's constantly pulling air, which means it's not a full siphon. If that's the case, then there's even LESS water moving through the pipe since there's air moving through it as well.

 

[scott3569]

I just watched that video, and I still don't understand how the overflow is set up. To the left of what I thought was the drain line, I see a surface skimmer of some sort with a flat guard on it. If this is the drain, it's constantly pulling air, which means it's not a full siphon. If that's the case, then there's even LESS water moving through the pipe since there's air moving through it as well.

yes when it is at that level you are correct..it is not always at that level I have to adjust the ball valve on the return, to get the level in the DT high enough not to suck air in..when I get that level correct i think it is more like a full syphon i could be very wrong on that also..

Like I have been saying the adjustment of the ball valve on the return seems to make all the difference..But I have to keep tweaking it..I have ordered a gate valve for the return line..I am hoping the adjustments on that will be more forgiving..

 

[RocketEngineer]

The type of overflow scott3569 has on the tank uses an inverted "U" siphon to transfer water from the inside of the tank to the outside. Stretched out they look like this:

The central part needs to have all the air removed after which adding water to the inlet (left) pushes water through the "siphon" to the outside of the tank where it exits (right barb fitting). While cheap and easy to make, there are a number of inherent flaws that limit the flow this type of overflow can handle. I used one for 2 years and was never truly happy with it.

Scot3569, the single easiest fix for your setup is to remove the ball valve from the drain line and go directly from the outlet of the overflow into your sump. There increases and decreases in plumbing sizing are likely causing all sorts of funky things to happen to the water flowing through that line. Once the drain line is simplified, adjust the outlet on the pump until the overflow can keep up with the pump. KISS.

Good Luck

 

[CedzAquAddictio]

yes when it is at that level you are correct..it is not always at that level I have to adjust the ball valve on the return, to get the level in the DT high enough not to suck air in..when I get that level correct i think it is more like a full syphon i could be very wrong on that also..

Like I have been saying the adjustment of the ball valve on the return seems to make all the difference..But I have to keep tweaking it..I have ordered a gate valve for the return line..I am hoping the adjustments on that will be more forgiving..

That gate valve will help, but not be a cure. Been down that road...
I had gate valves and ball valves on my return and drain at one time back when I was running an external overflow. It was never right until I fixed my drain.

There are allot more things to distract you from enjoying your tank than the constant concern of coming home to a flood. The overflow is constant in your tank, and needs to fluctuate as little as possible. If there is going to be a valve, it is on the return side, but the return side needs to be large enough to stand up to it, and be consistent as well.

Plenty of good info in this thread, but you have some inconsistencies in your drain (not return) that need to be fixed to give you a good baseline to build upon...

Welcome to reefing. LOL!!!

 

[scott3569]

ok, I WOW thank you guys.. with all the information that has been given so far..it may very well be the over flow...Even though it was working well be for the ato maybe it was not working as well I as thought..

That said. At this point..my options are..

1. increase the size of the pipig for the over flow(maybe not the best answer,but certainly one of the easiest)

2. replace the tank with a drilled tank..( this is not going to happen any time soon, however with the knowledge that I have at this point my next tank will either be pre drilled or I will drill it myself).

3. don't use the ATO at leas for now..

I realize that the over flow may not be the ideal set up.. I don't argue that.. but it is what I have to work with and for the most part it does work...

So what if I increased the diameter of the over flow...or maybe make a dual overflow.. with an increased pipe size??

could that effectivly solve the issue at least untill I can get a tank that is drilled..

 

[CedzAquAddictio]

ok, I WOW thank you guys.. with all the information that has been given so far..it may very well be the over flow...Even though it was working well be for the ato maybe it was not working as well I as thought..

That said. At this point..my options are..

1. increase the size of the pipig for the over flow(maybe not the best answer,but certainly one of the easiest)

2. replace the tank with a drilled tank..( this is not going to happen any time soon, however with the knowledge that I have at this point my next tank will either be pre drilled or I will drill it myself).

3. don't use the ATO at leas for now..

I realize that the over flow may not be the ideal set up.. I don't argue that.. but it is what I have to work with and for the most part it does work...

So what if I increased the diameter of the over flow...or maybe make a dual overflow.. with an increased pipe size??

could that effectivly solve the issue at least untill I can get a tank that is drilled..

For the most part, yes, it will get you by until you get a drilled tank.

Also: With a properly sized overflow, you may find yourself not using the ball/gate valves at all, and running your return at full power. Not guaranteed, but I've done it after rebuilding my plumbing a few times.

You may also consider building some redundancy into your return as well in case one gets clogged or blocked temporarily by a snail, or something. A simple screen may suffice as well...

 

[scott3569]

ok so I guess I should maybe look into increasing the size of my over flow piping and get rid of the ball valve on the overflow line..I never use it any way..never have to mess with it..that may actually be obvious but figured i would mention it...

I just want to make sure that sounds like a decent plan, at least until I upgrade my tank..which I am pretty sure will happen, I already have thoughts of doubling the size..or close to it anyway..

 

[RocketEngineer]

Honestly, I would change the design of the overflow if you were rebuilding it. I would make the inlet pipe larger and then go into a reducer before the first elbow, stay the smaller size all the way through the last elbow before going back up to the inlet size at the outlet tee. By using a smaller diameter for the siphon portion you get higher flow through that section, helping to keep bubbles from forming in the siphon tube.

From there I would hard plumb as much as possible into the sump. You could use a union and sort section of straight pipe to be able to remove the filter sock. No need to have the restriction of the barb fitting if you can avoid it.

Just a thought.

 

[scott3569]

Honestly, I would change the design of the overflow if you were rebuilding it. I would make the inlet pipe larger and then go into a reducer before the first elbow, stay the smaller size all the way through the last elbow before going back up to the inlet size at the outlet tee. By using a smaller diameter for the siphon portion you get higher flow through that section, helping to keep bubbles from forming in the siphon tube.

From there I would hard plumb as much as possible into the sump. You could use a union and sort section of straight pipe to be able to remove the filter sock. No need to have the restriction of the barb fitting if you can avoid it.

Just a thought.

hummm thats an interesting thought i may just try that..wouldn't take much to do..however if i go back to the inlet size after the tee in the syphon...would that not allow air into the system??

 

[RocketEngineer]

hummm thats an interesting thought i may just try that..wouldn't take much to do..however if i go back to the inlet size after the tee in the syphon...would that not allow air into the system??

You want air in the drain line so that it is quiet. The reason to go with 1.5" plumbing on the outlet side is that it is able to handle more flow in an air/water configuration than 1" could before it starts making noise.

 

[AwwNuts]

I'm about to plumb a HOB Overflow with 1.5" piping. Should a 90 degree elbow be added or a 45 degree to help it be quiet. I was going to add a gate valve just in case I needed to dial back because of gargling