Automatic Intermittent feeding system - remote sump systems
- Thread starter JohnM99
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steveweast
New member
2. Use a dual peristaltic pump system - pump 1 goes on first, and delivers a small volume of the concentrated food, and then pump 2 goes on for a volume sufficient to flush the line. Pump 2 could draw its water from the sump or refugium as needed
It's better to just run a low stream, constantly flowing closed loop through you refigerator that the food is dosed to. Dead water in a small pipe will go anaerobic. Food should be dispensed while cold.....hour long durations sitting in a warm pipe will spoil the food.
Looking around at various ideas for automated continuous (actually intermittent) feeding system ideas. Obviously, on a reef, feeding is not once a day at 5 pm when the owner happens to come home - it is more or less continuous - probably important for fish such as tangs, and especially for non photosynthetic inverts.
You will not be able to feed continuosly. Although the idea sounds great, the problem comes with the skimmer. All foods will knock down the foam in your skimmer from one to several hours.
In my system.....I have a three way automated ball valve that activates right before the feeding session. Basically....before feeding....the display tank water no longer flows to the sump (and the filtration)..... and instead.....just circulates with its internal powerheads. This way....the food stays concentrated in the display tank for however long I choose (I choose 45 minutes). The ball valve then returns the tank to normal filtration.
After each feeding session, my bubble king skimmer gets knocked out of action for about 90 minutes ( I feed alot!!!). Therefore....the number of feeding sessions is somewhat limited. I currently have three daily feeding sessions.
It's better to just run a low stream, constantly flowing closed loop through you refigerator that the food is dosed to. Dead water in a small pipe will go anaerobic. Food should be dispensed while cold.....hour long durations sitting in a warm pipe will spoil the food.
Looking around at various ideas for automated continuous (actually intermittent) feeding system ideas. Obviously, on a reef, feeding is not once a day at 5 pm when the owner happens to come home - it is more or less continuous - probably important for fish such as tangs, and especially for non photosynthetic inverts.
You will not be able to feed continuosly. Although the idea sounds great, the problem comes with the skimmer. All foods will knock down the foam in your skimmer from one to several hours.
In my system.....I have a three way automated ball valve that activates right before the feeding session. Basically....before feeding....the display tank water no longer flows to the sump (and the filtration)..... and instead.....just circulates with its internal powerheads. This way....the food stays concentrated in the display tank for however long I choose (I choose 45 minutes). The ball valve then returns the tank to normal filtration.
After each feeding session, my bubble king skimmer gets knocked out of action for about 90 minutes ( I feed alot!!!). Therefore....the number of feeding sessions is somewhat limited. I currently have three daily feeding sessions.
JohnM99
Premium Member
Thanks for the comments, Steve. I had been concerned about the food going off - but if the internal volume in the dead space is small enough, the food won't stay there very long. It is possible to calclulate the volume in the dead space and set it up so that it has a known maximum dwell time in the dead space of the tubing. Alternately, the whole pump could go in a fridge - not sure about that, but then there would be no problem.
I would not agree that it will go off in 1 hour - it would take longer than that.
The problem that occurs to me with a continuous flow closed loop system you describe would be that the volume would be too high - and hard to control. Or do you have a method for that?
Regarding the skimmer - I wonder if just a tiny amount of food once an hour will stop the skimming - I would have thought it might not. Certainly a large volume would. And yes, you are of course correct, this is not really continuous - it is every hour or whatever interval you set it at.
I don't shut off my main pump at all during feeding (because of the way I set it up that would be difficult) - I have always wondered how much of the food goes down to the sump, escapes the skimmer and gets pumped back up. Some of my food also goes to my fuge.
Anyway, it seems to me quite odd when you look at how much attention is paid to relatively minor points in this hobby (just look at the masses of posting on skimmer trivia) and there is relatively little attention paid to our very artificial way of feeding our reefs. We have managed to keep our water reasonably similar to that which bathes a reef, but feed our herbivore - continuous feeding organisms as though they were once a day carnivores. What has changed in the hobby over the past 40 years? - a huge amount on water quality - not a heck of a lot on feeding. The only thing we do that approaches continuous feeding is if we have a huge fuge, I guess.
My thoughts above are just a start on this. I think this is something that has huge potential for improvement. I am sure my ideas are not the answer, but maybe someone has more ideas......
I would not agree that it will go off in 1 hour - it would take longer than that.
The problem that occurs to me with a continuous flow closed loop system you describe would be that the volume would be too high - and hard to control. Or do you have a method for that?
Regarding the skimmer - I wonder if just a tiny amount of food once an hour will stop the skimming - I would have thought it might not. Certainly a large volume would. And yes, you are of course correct, this is not really continuous - it is every hour or whatever interval you set it at.
I don't shut off my main pump at all during feeding (because of the way I set it up that would be difficult) - I have always wondered how much of the food goes down to the sump, escapes the skimmer and gets pumped back up. Some of my food also goes to my fuge.
Anyway, it seems to me quite odd when you look at how much attention is paid to relatively minor points in this hobby (just look at the masses of posting on skimmer trivia) and there is relatively little attention paid to our very artificial way of feeding our reefs. We have managed to keep our water reasonably similar to that which bathes a reef, but feed our herbivore - continuous feeding organisms as though they were once a day carnivores. What has changed in the hobby over the past 40 years? - a huge amount on water quality - not a heck of a lot on feeding. The only thing we do that approaches continuous feeding is if we have a huge fuge, I guess.
My thoughts above are just a start on this. I think this is something that has huge potential for improvement. I am sure my ideas are not the answer, but maybe someone has more ideas......
steveweast
New member
I'm not sure what you're talking about here. In my feeding system.....the low flow closed loop is nothing but a delivery mechanism.....instead of dosing food directly to the tank, I dose to a closed loop line that then delivers food to the tank. The amount of flow is irrelevant. That low flow is always flowing from the tank.....through the refrigerator....and back to the tank. The dosing pump....at the appointed times....just doses food to the closed loop line inside the refrigerator. My dosing pump has a 1ml minimum.....it is quite controlled.
I disagree with you on food spoilage in an un-refrigerated line....but, my information is based only on the foods that I use and it's manufacturer's feedback. I can't speak to other foods. I will say though....that even thawed....but refrigerated....cyclopese has only about a weeks time before spoilage.
I also think that any amount of food will knock your skimmer down. Just putting my hand in the tank knocks mine down.....but, maybe, my bubble king is very sensative (or maybe, I'm just that dirty).
Placing a three way ball valve is VERY easy to do in any sump and the concentrated feeding time utilizes the food better. It is a must in my system since I have heavy mechanical filtration as well as a huge skimmer.
JohnM99
Premium Member
Do you have a picture of your system? - it sounds good, and well thought out.
I suppose spoilage is relative and varies - if the system didn't get cleaned regularly, it could get out of hand more quickly than in one that was very clean each week. Of course, I eat pizza that was left out overnight, and old milk and smelly blue cheese, so you may want to ignore my habits!
Yes, a 3 way ball valve is an easy setup - but my sump is way down in the basement and I am too lazy. I think I end up feeding a bit more, and I deliver it with a turkey baster so it doesn't float away over the overflow immediately. My thinking has been the part that does go down the drain is appreciated by the beasts in my refugium. My nitrates are pretty steady at 0-5, usually 5.
I suppose the truth is I am inherently lazy and like automating things. Laziness has driven a good many inventions.
If the skimmer stops working altogether, I could change it to feeding every 3 or 4 hours and see, I suppose.
I suppose spoilage is relative and varies - if the system didn't get cleaned regularly, it could get out of hand more quickly than in one that was very clean each week. Of course, I eat pizza that was left out overnight, and old milk and smelly blue cheese, so you may want to ignore my habits!
Yes, a 3 way ball valve is an easy setup - but my sump is way down in the basement and I am too lazy. I think I end up feeding a bit more, and I deliver it with a turkey baster so it doesn't float away over the overflow immediately. My thinking has been the part that does go down the drain is appreciated by the beasts in my refugium. My nitrates are pretty steady at 0-5, usually 5.
I suppose the truth is I am inherently lazy and like automating things. Laziness has driven a good many inventions.
If the skimmer stops working altogether, I could change it to feeding every 3 or 4 hours and see, I suppose.
steveweast
New member
I'm not quite sure what you're referring to here by saying " if the system didn't get cleaned regularly" I feed the Reef Nutrition line of foods and in my conversations with them it was told to me that the foods MUST be kept refrigerated AT ALL TIMES....even a short duration in a non refrigerated line risked spoilage. Therefore, I designed my feeding system with 100 % refrigeration in mind. It isn't about husbandry....it's about 100% refrigeration.....at least with the foods that I'm using.
As for a pic....here's the refrigerator. It is really quite simple as you can see. Each RN food is dosed to the white 1/2" PVC line....then the closed loop delivers the food to the tank immediately. The flask contains thawed cyclopese that is kept in suspension by a magnetic stirrer. I only mix a week's worth or less of cyclopese.....the other foods are good for months.
I understand the laziness issue.....my beer belly is a testiment to my laziness. I just to need feed the system several times a day when I can't be there. Afterall, this is on a non photosynthetic coldwater tank that requires multiple feedings.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/steveweast/refrigerator.jpg
steveweast
New member
That's a good question Marc (did Evan help you with it ? lol).
I chose the dosing pump with anti-siphon in mind. It was detailed to me by the Profilux folks that their pumps did not back siphon. While I was dubious, I tested it for about a month with no back siphoning.....it's been working like a champ in full operation since last February. I guess I could always install some sort of anti siphon valve if needed....but, so far....it works flawlessly.
I chose the dosing pump with anti-siphon in mind. It was detailed to me by the Profilux folks that their pumps did not back siphon. While I was dubious, I tested it for about a month with no back siphoning.....it's been working like a champ in full operation since last February. I guess I could always install some sort of anti siphon valve if needed....but, so far....it works flawlessly.
Last edited:
melev
Well-known member
That was just soo wrong! :lol:
But you do get points for being funny. :thumbsup:
Thanks for the answer. I guess if the closed loop pump isn't too strong, it should be fine, similar to how we have circulation pumps on our calcium reactors that don't push the water back into the CO2 regulator (hopefully). I have two check valves on mine, btw.
But you do get points for being funny. :thumbsup:
Thanks for the answer. I guess if the closed loop pump isn't too strong, it should be fine, similar to how we have circulation pumps on our calcium reactors that don't push the water back into the CO2 regulator (hopefully). I have two check valves on mine, btw.
steveweast
New member
The pressure is very minimal. The flow is maybe 20 or 25 gph
IUfan
Member
You guys are brilliant.
I've been thinking about an auto frozen feeder idea for a while.
Steve, your feeder looks to be the ideal system so far. I did have one question, do peristaltic pumps allow larger foods (Brine, Mysis, Krill) to pass through them? I've seen the way they work for my ATO and vinegar dosing, and I doubt that they would. ..and then as I'm typing this, I'm now thinking the actual I.D. of the tubing would be a concern also with food types of that size.
Has anyone explored the use of a portable ice maker? Using cubed foods? I saw someone mention this on another thread, I've looked at them and have been intrigued, surprised no one has at least given it a try, are there flaws that I haven't thought about?
Thanks for any input guys.
I've been thinking about an auto frozen feeder idea for a while.
Steve, your feeder looks to be the ideal system so far. I did have one question, do peristaltic pumps allow larger foods (Brine, Mysis, Krill) to pass through them? I've seen the way they work for my ATO and vinegar dosing, and I doubt that they would. ..and then as I'm typing this, I'm now thinking the actual I.D. of the tubing would be a concern also with food types of that size.
Has anyone explored the use of a portable ice maker? Using cubed foods? I saw someone mention this on another thread, I've looked at them and have been intrigued, surprised no one has at least given it a try, are there flaws that I haven't thought about?
Thanks for any input guys.
Most of the feeds being used do not lend themselves to freezing all that well, as well as the manufacturer of several of those feeds advises against both freezing, as well as dilution.
Peristaltic pumps come in all shapes and sizes. We use a 1.5" ID one at my work, and numerous .75" ones. The hobbyist pumps though are not really tunable in terms of changing tubing. USing normal hobbyist 1/4" tubing I can pass all but Mysis-Feast from the Reef Nutrition product line.
