calcium vs GFO binding phosphates

[sde1500]

Here i posted the proof on how the calcium bonds to phosphates and at what rate by using the polyphosphate filter example.

Proof? I'm not seeing any proof just statements. I by no means am a chemist or anything, and quite honestly reading this thread made my head hurt lol. But, plenty of people use kalk, and Kalk stirrers, you'd think if it worked to control phosphates we'd know by now right?

 

[jason2459]

Post #5 in this thread summarizes my posts from several different threads trying to keep 2smokes on target and to provide actual proof or references to back up his stance on this subject.

 

[2smokes]

@Tesla picture-I dont speak corectly my native language and you wish me to speak perfect english.Maybe i am a bit dyslexic but that doesnt mean im stupid.In fact most of the highest IQ people are dislexic ,including Tesla.I read your posts for a few years and i know your smart but i had [profanity] in the otther forum because you assumed that if i use bad english i must be stupid.Never judge a person by the way it talks.Napoleon was speaking bad french and he was the emperor of france .There are a few bad apples on this forum but you are the last i would expected to be.@Jason [insults remove] are the guy that lectures people how to pour CaCO3 to reduce phospates.I told you that CaCO3 is just powder sand or rock and that its not soluble in water.Any kid can google to see that CaCO3 doesnt dissolve in water and that [profanity].The ,,snake oil,, thread i made it because i was influenced by you.In a calcium reactor you have to use acid (carbonic acid by adding CO2 to the water)to melt the CaCO3.IL not loose my time to explain you something because you allready seem to know everyting and you start to cry and call people trolls if they show you that your wrong.@Big Chief here-not everybody uses GFO to reduce phosphates in aquarium.In fact most of the people dont use it .Everybody tryes it because its cheap and indeed reduces the phosphates but only thoose that are in the water,not thoose that are on the stone surface.Calcium is just as good as GFO and in all aquariums and on all the reefs in the world ,the calcium its the main phosphate binder.Because of the calcium ,the water and soil on the reefs has such low phosphates.Il post a few informations about polyphosphate filters just so that every aquarist will understand at what rate calcium is binding phosphates.

 

[jason2459]

....

@Jason [insults removed] you are the guy that lectures people how to pour CaCO3 to reduce phospates.I told you that CaCO3 is just powder sand or rock and that its not soluble in water.Any kid can google to see that CaCO3 doesnt dissolve in water [profanity].The ,,snake oil,, thread i made it because i was influenced by you.In a calcium reactor you have to use acid (carbonic acid by adding CO2 to the water)to melt the CaCO3.IL not loose my time to explain you something because you allready seem to know everyting and you start to cry and call people trolls if they show you that your wrong.

...
]

Show me where I said using CaCO3 dropped into the tank like coral snow was an effective means of reducing phosphates. My statement was that I saw no difference in water clarity with or with out it. I have noticed a noticeable growth in coraline algae. All of my statements are in post #5 of this thread regarding our "debate". Yes, calcium can bind phosphates. But...

You said Calcium (and particularly calcium hydroxide) was superior in binding phosphates in our saltwater tanks and I'm still open to seeing references to support this.

Yes, I do feel many of your statements, especially now, is trolling.

I still saw nothing in the rest of your post to support your claim.

 

[bertoni]

[flamealert]

 

[bertoni]

Okay, I don't see how your examples show us anything that applies to our tanks. They show using polyphosphate on fresh water to bind calcium. GFO is intended to remove phosphate (not polyphosphate) from the water column of a saltwater system.

 

[2smokes]

Il stick to the deep sea aquarium thread, but i had to post the last post.What Jason does, it isnt ,,constructive criticism,, and tesla altough he could have had a good input to this thread he choosed instead to laugh of my writing skills.They should get an advertisment too.The polyphosphates filter works even better in salt water than fresh water because the higher the ph the more calcium adheres to the phosphates.

 

[jason2459]

For anyone reading this please read the articles listed in post #5.

Phosohates are a very interesting subject. So much so Randy Holmes-Farley extensively reseached it and has patents on binding it at least in humans.

He's also shared his wealth of knowledge freely available to us online.

He has shown many ways phosphates can be introduces to our aquariums, what things to not worry so much about (like rinsing food), and helpful ways to try and remove them.

There is one method of using limewater aka kalkwasser aka calcium hydroxide etc. Its not to directly bind phosphates but to actually help keep pH higher to reduce calcium in our rocks and/or sand from releasing it.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/


On GFO
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-11/rhf/index.htm


And many many many more helpful articles.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2127046

 

[bertoni]

The polyphosphates filter works even better in salt water than fresh water because the higher the ph the more calcium adheres to the phosphates.

But we don't want to remove calcium from saltwater. We want to remove phosphate from saltwater without removing calcium or alkalinity.

 

[jason2459]

Il stick to the deep sea aquarium thread, but i had to post the last post.What Jason does, it isnt ,,constructive criticism,, and tesla altough he could have had a good input to this thread he choosed instead to laugh of my writing skills.They should get an advertisment too.The polyphosphates filter works even better in salt water than fresh water because the higher the ph the more calcium adheres to the phosphates.

Show me where I haven't posted relevant links. If you don't find my posts helpful then I hope someone does.

I want to learn so if I'm wrong about something I want to know how. Especially if it is completely against everything I know or have experienced or read from papers, books, or even posts of people I highly respect and trust.

Lastly, now you are completely flipping your argument.

Your stance is using limewater to bind PO4 and to do so more effectively then GFO and at least on par with Lanthanum Chloride.

I have even entertained the fact that the theory is there and tried to think of a method to be able to do so.

First, you have not proven a practical way to use calcium hydroxide to directly reduce phosphates in our saltwater tank. The theory is there but in practice it would be very localized and in extremely small amounts. Maybe some kind of reactor incorporating calcium hydroxide, hydrochloric acid to handle the alkalinity spike, and very fine filter to handle the precipitate. Maybe some CO2.

Either way I'd like to see your reference to using limewater in a ease and practical way to reduce phosphates that is cheaper and more efficient then GFO.

Second, I would love to also now know how nails will practically work as well. Randy in that link you provided brought up several valid points.

1. Yes, it will rust and convert
2. Contaminants are a concern
3. You would need an extremely large amount of nails to compare to th surface area of GFO
4. Point 3 makes point 2 an even greater concern.

Contaminants would not just come from a surface coating. To make this work you could create maybe a reactor out of a large container filled with nails pumping water through it. That doesn't sound practical or powerful.

Would be easier to dose iron citrate like GlennF does or use GFO. I believe GFO in a small reactor to be safer.

 

[2smokes]

But we don't want to remove calcium from saltwater. We want to remove phosphate from saltwater without removing calcium or alkalinity.

Off course we dont want to remove calcium by using a phosphate filter.That was just an example to demonstrate that calcium binds to phosphates verry well.The only use for a phosphate filter to help us in the hobby might be if its installed before the RODI unit so that the RO DI filter and resin would last much longer.I advice not to use water treated with polyphosphates for drinking even if the polyphosphates are made for human consumption.

 

[jason2459]

Off course we dont want to remove calcium by using a phosphate filter.That was just an example to demonstrate that calcium binds to phosphates verry well.The only use for a phosphate filter to help us in the hobby might be if its installed before the RODI unit so that the RO DI filter and resin would last much longer.I advice not to use water treated with polyphosphates for drinking even if the polyphosphates are made for human consumption.

This still doesn't apply to your argument. If it does please explain how this applies to using calcium hydroxide to remove phosphates and how that can be done.

 

[neiltus]

It's clear to me. Dosing an 8 ounce white russian per 100 gallons with remove NO3 and bind PO4.

 

[bertoni]

Off course we dont want to remove calcium by using a phosphate filter.That was just an example to demonstrate that calcium binds to phosphates verry well.

Actually, we know calcium does NOT bind to phosphate freely in saltwater. Otherwise, phosphate always would be zero. Saltwater has a lot of calcium in it. Your example is polyphosphate, not phosphate, as well. We are concerned with phosphate (orthophosphate). That's what our test kits measure.

 

[2smokes]

Actually, we know calcium does NOT bind to phosphate freely in saltwater. Otherwise, phosphate always would be zero. Saltwater has a lot of calcium in it. Your example is polyphosphate, not phosphate, as well. We are concerned with phosphate (orthophosphate). That's what our test kits measure.

Thats what kalk doesn when it reacts with phosphoric acid(also called ortophosphate) H3PO4 + Ca(OH)2 → CaHPO4 resulting that mineral called Monetite.

 

[bertoni]

We are treating saltwater tanks with animals in them. We can't add that much Kalk. It'd kill the animals or remove calcium and alkalinity from the water column, or both.

 

[jason2459]

Thats what kalk doesn when it reacts with phosphoric acid(also called ortophosphate) H3PO4 + Ca(OH)2 → CaHPO4 resulting that mineral called Monetite.

Ah yes, right back to the circular discussion. Yes, the theory is there as I've stated many times. FYI you are missing a couple H2O molecules in that equation.

But you fail to show how that can be done safely in our saltwater aquariums. Craig Bingman could not and he tried. Again, something I referenced to previously.

I also theorized in another post maybe its not limewater directly thats most efficient in the process but the precipitation of CaCO3 that allows phosphate to bind to that in equilibrium with the saltwater of the tank so would need to be filtered out quickly to be able to export the phosphates. But again it would be very localized and a small amount.

 

[2smokes]

We cant add much kalk at a time thats why it takes somme time until the stone is slowly cemented with calcium.Its an approach that takes time but its the only way to stop a rock from leaching phosphates.GFO is fast because you can ad a big quantity at a time but it cant deposit on the rock surface so even if you use GFO and have O phosphates in the water you could still have algae or cyano on rocks because thoose are taking the phosphates directly from the substrate and not from the water.Craig Bingmann or any otther aquarist its sucessfull in bonding phosphates with calcium even from water changes but it takes time.To shorten that time you have to mantain higher a higher ph and stable because the calcium and phosphate compounds can disolve if the ph is swinging.I had no phosphate isuues in my aquarium while ive dosed kalk.After ive stopped the ph got low and then somme of the calcium and phosphates that were bonded together dissolved .The phosphates vere free and i had cyano and GHA that vere feeding from it.Personally i would use a low alkalinity salt so i could dose kalk continuously but with a kalk stirrer to mantain calcium,alk and ph stable.Dosing kalk through the top off works if you dont have big consumption of ca and alk.I still think that kalk is the best way better than the CO2 calcium reactor because the kalk gives you the ability to maintain a desirable higher ph easy.Addind 2 part solution is also good and basically every calcium and alk supplementation is good to bond the phosphates.

 

[2smokes]

Most sucessfull and most beautifull sps tank i know uses 2 part solution.2 part is the most comfortable way to keep Ca and alk stable because by using a kalk stirrer or a CO2 Calcium reactor you will still need to adjust especially alk from time to time.In an old aquarium with rocks that arent leaching phosphates it doent matter if you use kalkstirrer or CO2 reactor or 2 part ,the result will be the same .But in a new tank the higher ph of the kalk and the kalk itself will make a difference with kalk being the fastest to stop the phosphate leaching rocks from all the 3 different techniques to add Ca and alk.

 

[jason2459]

What you are describing dose not seem to be caused by what you believe. From what I got out of that.

Calcium from limewater does not add by any significant means to rock or sand. How do you propose that happens?

Some precipitated calcium carbonate at the site of dosing adds to your sand but it's a very small amount.

But lets say this occurred. How is this by anymeans more efficient then GFO that you just said above is much quicker to absorb phosphates.

If you can't keep up with the phosphates by another means, doesn't have to be GFO, then what will stop the phosphates from continuously binding to that theoretical layer of new calcium on the rocks which you said takes a long time. Phosphates are continuously added to our systems.

You can stop a rock from leaching phosphates by reducing the phosphates from the water column and allowing the phosphates to continue to leach out until exhausted. This would be best done before you even place the rocks in your tank.

If after you've placed the rock in your tank and someone is experiencing extremely high phosphate levels then I would suggest what I've posted previously. The careful use of LaCL3 to bring phosphates to just high or elevated levels, then GFO to bring pbosphates to lower manageable levels, and another form of PO4 export that could complement or potentially replace GFO like carbon dosing and harvesting algae in some way.

What you describe in your experience is what Randy commented on by using limewater you keep pH elevated enough to reduce the chance of the surface of the rocks from dissolving which would release phosphates. Nothing to do with calcium deposits on the rocks to protect it from PO4. And FYI your pH would have to be very low.