Cat liter boxes and ammonia

Thanks Boomer. I'm still kinda skeptical but I see where it is not an impossibility now. No cat no worry, but interesting. You know, I thought the original post was way out there at best. Sorry HONDACBR600RR. Once again I find out how little I know.
 
I do not know how one can be skeptical at all on facts based on measured and tested values. There are at least 3 threads here on this issue in the last year. It is not a opinion or coincidence that if one removes the cat box and it goes away and you put the cat box back it comes back. I will add that Jim from the filter guys has had a few phone calls on it when somebodies RO/DI is loaded with ammonia and the TDS output of that RO/DI water is zero TDS. And what is near that container, a cat box.
 
If memory serves me, and it often doesn't, the forum has discredited many studies for lack of controls and making over arching conclusions from simple observations. The cause and effect analysis you cited may be sound in theory, but I think the application could be flawed. Ammonia gas has a very pungent, suffocating odor. It would be uncomfortable to stay in a room for very long at a concentration of just a few ppm. I just can't buy that, in a healthy tank, a few ppm of atmosphric ammonia can be transported into sea water faster than biological processes can remove it.

There's not a chance that I will ever have a cat box near the tank or a cat for that matter. That's a no-brainer. If the choice were about something more difficult I think I'd require more "facts" before doing anything drastic. With all due respect, I think that's a reasonable position that should be easy to understand.
 
reef

This is not open for debate, it is not an option, it is FACT and has been reported on many times and tested on to include by me. Please explain how it is flawed. You can't can you ? I also did not say or imply any cat box, all cat boxes or anyone with a cat box will have an issue.

I'll say it again so it is MORE clear. If a container of water is measured and shows no ammonia over the course of a couple of days and you place a cat box next to it and the ammonia is high in a couple of days. Run the test again, without a cat box and new water shows no ammonia, then put back the cat box and the ammonia is high, then, go-fish, where did the ammonia came from ? This is what I did and others have done more or less. Your conclusion is, despite what you say, which is evident by your posts, is a cat box can not cause an ammonia spike and all who say so are taking gibberish. So, do not worry about it. Yet, you have no theory, not data or info of your own or anything to say studies for lack of controls and making over arching conclusions from simple observations, which means your are just talking to make you sound correct. Please explain how some with RO/DI water that have zero TDS and no ammonia gets ammonia if a cat box is next to it ? Yet you say it can't be the cat box. But if they make new RO/DI water and move the cat box there is not ammonia and put it back there is ammonia. So, lets here your theory to discredit this. This test is again not rocket science.


You do not even have a cat to begin with and have no first hand knowledge of it at all. I will add that people that keep cats often get use to that odor. You are often told when somebody enters your house and then do not have a cat, "what is that smell the house stinks like ammonia".

With all due respect, I think that's a reasonable position that should be easy to understand.

The position is you do not understand what is going on, therefore it can not be going on. Your own remarks the forum has discredited many studies for lack of controls and making over arching conclusions from simple observations. discredit you even more.

sea water faster than biological processes can remove it.

Seawater is not different than a FW tanks where the issue has also been seen. You seem to forget that things like air pumps are constantly pumping in that ammonia and at times faster than it can be converted.

a few ppm of atmosphric ammonia can be transported into sea water faster than biological processes can remove it

Based on what ? Where is any info you have other than your hear-say. Your remarks are a very big application could be flawed. and MUCH more so than mine or those posts I gave.

I, unlike you, am warning people it may or could be an issue. When it is raining outside I do not need to go outside to know I'm going to get wet.
 
Well after all the info I read I moved the litter boxes anyway, and I clean it everyday with great litter. I think my bigger problem with ammonia stemmed from removing my bio balls however I think the litter may create a chance for it to enter the tank so I decided the cats would have to go downstairs to go to the bathroom now.
 
So let's clarify this. A litter box that is so over-used it has exhausted the capacity of the litter to absorb urine, can produce enough ammonia to outgas, then diffuse into nearby water, producing a concentration high enough to measure, let alone be toxic? I'm not a chemist, and my last chemistry lesson was eons ago, but the math to produce the volume of gas at a suitable pressure to diffuse across the air/water barrier, saturating the water as ammonium hydroxide (I presume) at equilibrium, without being in a pressurized confined space, makes this extremely unlikely. The litter box would qualify as a chemical weapon at that rate and likely be not just irritating but toxic to the human residents.

Okay, the chemistry is technically possible. Especially since ammonium hydroxide can be worse than other ammonias in a reef tank. But the amount of ammonia present in normal cat urine, combined with the assumed relatively large air space of the normal home (gasses don't target a tank, but I guess an air line could act as a concentrating input), would mean there has to an incredible amount of urine produced to make this even theoretically likely.

Frankly, the person with a litter box that bad shouldn't be allowed to keep the cats, let alone a reef tank.

How about a simple control test? Leave a bowl of household ammonia open six feet from a tank of water and test ammonia levels every day, charting the rise in ammonia. Technically, cat urine doesn't produce ammonia until it is dried and bacteria go to work on it, releasing ammonia as a gas, so this experiment may not directly be a good control. Anyone have a canister of ammonia gas handy? That Homeland Security isn't going to confiscate? :)

Jeff
 
Sorry Boomer, nothing personal intended. I'm really not looking for credit so being discredited is no big deal in my book. I believe that I thanked you for explaining how it could happen and for making me realize that the statement made by the OP was not as crazy as I thought. I even admitted to being humbled (again) and apologized to the OP for even thinking something else was more than likely the problem. I don't understand your reply.

You are right, I don't know and I hope that I haven't come across as pretending to. I've gone out of my way give great deference to those that do when posting in this forum. Maybe the EOD world if it says "cut the red wire", you wouldn't consider questioning the instruction, however in the rest of the world we survive by employing a certain amount or critical thinking. This causes us to challenge those who claim to know.

I've already agreed that the experiment proved that ammonia gas from a cat box could end up in the display tank. However, I do think that there is some question as to the concentration of ammonia gas required to provide a measurable effect in a normally operating aquarium; in a normally ventilated room; and wheather or not we would be comfortable being in a room with a high enough concentration to make a difference.

If there is no room for critical thinking or debate with certain people in this forum, I'll refrain from posting in it.
 
So let's clarify this Jeff


Yes, let clarify. Where did you come up with the notion cat urine and its generated ammonia is ammonium hydroxide. It is ammonia gas which is NH3. What do you mean suitable pressure ? An air pump or skimmer will pump it into a system. Did you or has anybody actually looked. Do you know that pregnant women are NOT suppose to be cleaning cat litter boxes. I suppose that is meaningless gibberish too. The math , your math, you have no math to back up your claim at all. Why not just show your so called math. Pressurized in a confined space ?? So, when people come over to somebodies house and the pH drops in their tank from 8. 2 to like 7.8 from the extra CO2 they breath out is some how in a confined space and that pH drop is also all imagination ? Water has a partial pressure of CO2 as does the air which makes the CO2 even harder to enter the water yet it does. That ammonia gas has a air partial pressure but virtually no ammonia partial pressure in the tank so it enters quickly. Ammonia gas getting into a aquatic system is much worse that any salt of ammonia, like ammonium hydroxide as it is much more concentrated. Your not theoretically likely is gibberish, as it is obvious you do not understand the chemistry, which is evident by your own posts. Gases don't target a tank but that pH still drops from room air CO2 now doesn't it. Another issue is older cats and male cats produce more ammonia. I'll say if for the last time. I did not say or insinuate that all cat boxes, all people with cats, all containers are an issue and said it has been an issue for some. Quit trying to make this something more than it is. Even Dr. Rangy Holmes-Farley will tell you it can and will enter a tank and how much is dependent on how much is in the air or near a cat box that is giving off ammonia and usually is not an issue for cycled tanks. There are dozens of forums around the world and almost all of them have had discussions on cat boxes and ammonia issues with them. But you can not explain, now can you, that if the cat box is removed there are no more ammonia issues, with that person.


Another story so I guess all are dreaming as you and reefer say so.
RC
I thought that I would post this scary little experience that I'm having concerning cat ownership to any others that may have cats. I think that this could be a pretty common problem with a lot of people out there, or I may just be the lucky one.

A couple of weeks ago I noticed that I had an Ammonia spike in my QT tank I couldn't understand why because it had been reading 0 for two months and I did weekly 50% changes on it and I had just performed a WC on it and it was at .25. I immediately started looking for sources and tested my WC water and it was .5!!!!!!!!!! How could this be, I immediately scrubbed it out and let it dry out for three days. I then refilled it and tested it again and it was 0, then I tested it the next day and it was .25!!!!! What the $**% is going on I said. Well I thought it was my test kit so I took some to LFS along with RO/DI that I tested at 0 and they got the same results of .25 in the mixed and 0 in the RO. Well now I was very confused and thought it was the salt and eventually ruled that out by placing plain RO out in a bowl and testing it the next day and it was at .5!!!!!!!!!!!

I then started placing bowls of RO all over my house to find the source of the ammonia and I was disturbed to find out that it was all over the house in different levels and the highest were in the basement where I have my water barrels and cat boxes at. I immediately knew that it was the cats, but how? I only have two cats (both female so no marking) and I clean the box out every other day and there is never an order of ammonia at all that is detectable in the air at any time. I can honestly say that I have never tested makeup water before for ammonia because it's just not something that you would ever expect so I don't know how long it has been going on but I recently changed to Tidy Cat litter in the last month and I always used to use Arm & Hammer before and I don't know if that is why. I switched back to the Arm & Hammer a couple of days ago and have been scooping twice a day but have not seen any immediate difference. I hope that it will come down because I have no idea what I will do if it doesn't change soon because I'm getting really stressed out about it. I can still do water changes because my storage barrel is completely sealed off and tests at 0 so it's fine, but I can only let the water mix in my other barrel with salt for about 5 hours without ammonia absorption into it. The disturbing part is that I know my tanks are constantly getting ammonia injections via the air and that's just messed up!!

So the moral of the story is that if you have cats you should place a bowl of RO in the same room as the litter box for a 24 hrs. and test just to see if you may have the same problem. I do and don't hope that I'm the only one with this problem because I would be happy for the rest of the cat owners that don't but would be perplexed if I was the only one. For reference the tests that I have used for the ammonia were API, Tetra Test and Salifert and all had the same readings of about .5 after 24 hrs. in the same room as litter boxes, and yes it does go up to 1.0 after two days if you leave it, VERY SCARY if I had a tank nearby but it's on the second level of the house and that bowl of water tests in between 0 & .25 after 24 hrs.
 
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Jeff and reefer.

This is my last post on this issue as we are starting to push the RC mod limit and I do not want that happening. We are now starting to talk in circles. I have no more to say and all is well with me. I will end by saying this. Those reading this can decide for themselves and that the credit or merit of a post or reply can be determined by its contents. They can decide who has content, merit or not.
 
Boomer said:
Jeff and reefer.

This is my last post on this issue as we are starting to push the RC mod limit and I do not want that happening. We are now starting to talk in circles. I have no more to say and all is well with me. I will end by saying this. Those reading this can decide for themselves and that the credit or merit of a post or reply can be determined by its contents. They can decide who has content, merit or not.
Click to expand...

Please do not let that be your last post because I need an answer to this question. This has become a very serious situation in our dogs, cat, reef, bird friendly home. Add 3 adults.

If there is absolutely nowhere else to keep a litter box EXCEPT in the same room as (2) 40ish gallon saltwater tanks - room is approx 8X10 and the littler box is kept very clean and is always covered what can be done in regard to the ammonia issue?

An air cleaner?

The tanks are my husbands and are in a room of our home that also contains a litter box. The tanks have been up and cycled for 3 months and have contained, until this weekend an ammonia alert badge. That always read normal which is apparently an inaccurate reading since an ammonia test Elos Ammonia Kit reads between .25 to .50 recently.
The use of Prime and 20% water changes every other day are doing little to effect that reading.
The tanks mainly contain wrasses.

Short of taking down the tanks or removing the litter box is there a solution to the ammonia problem taking the above information as fact.
 
I don't know of an air cleaner that can remove ammonia, but there might be one.

The Prime won't lower the ammonia reading from many test kits, because of the way the kits work. The SeaChem kit will tell you the amount of unbound ammonia when Prime is being dosed, if you're worried.

I'd try removing the litter box for a few days and seeing whether the ammonia levels respond, if that's easy to do. That's a lot of ammonia for a reef tank.
 
And we need a second reading from a different tester, like the pet store they usually will.

Those two factors are critical it at least starts to move the mystery along

My bet is you do not have an external source of ammonia.

treat your issue like a cycling issue first and I think something will become evident.
The next step is list levels detected by secondary test taken same time as yours on another test run. Pictures will help
 
OK. I will do my best to post pix ASAP. These are not the reef tanks - they are simple saltwater tanks and the litter box is less than 3 feet away.

I am going to rearrange the room a bit moving the litter box as far from the tanks as practically possible as well as take more readings with a different kit and post back.

In all honesty these are not my tanks but my husbands. I am hoping he will chime in here to fill in any blanks.

These are semi new setups so I can see where it may very well be a cycling issue though the coincidence of the box being in there is glaring.

Because of the way our home is situated this is the only room that can contain a litter box.
Cat, dogs, a bird, the reef and the saltwater tanks make for very little wiggle room trying to separate which animals needs from another.
 
I have cats and a marine tank. If you have enough ammonia in the air you're worried about the fish, I'm (with apologies) worried about the people. First of all, get a decent clumping clay litter that DOESN"T have a perfume, and just check it daily. Arm & Hammer unscented is good. There are also containers that will stop nearly all odor http://www.amazon.com/Designer-Catb...F8&qid=1343281735&sr=8-79&keywords=litter+box ---but daily cleaning is still healthiest. If you can't smell it---it is NOT a cause of tank problems. Windex, now, is a Very Bad Thing anywhere near your tank. So are scented candles, furniture polishes, spray cleaners, laundry rooms, and room fresheners.
 
You might want to get a second opinion on the ammonia kit, too. They sometimes fail and detect small amounts of ammonia in everything.
 
I tested some water for a water change both when mixing the salt and when adding it to the tank a few days later. The ammonia went from 0 to .25 ppm. my gf has pet rats whose cage sits above the tupperware where I keep my water, so I am going to start storing the water in a different area and see if it still contains ammonia.
 
I've had the cat little box 5 feet from the tank(s) for more than 10 years with no noticeable problems. Ignorance is bliss I guess. Thanks for this thread. I appreciate the facts. Suffice to say, I just moved the litter box down to the basement where it should be anyway.
 
Sorry for the late reply - we were getting ready for a big storm that we did not have.

Hubby wants to do another ammonia test with a different kit plus put a bucket of RO water in the same general area of the tanks with an air stone run off the same pump as the one feeding the tanks.

Personally I find it a bit iffy to believe about the ammonia coming from the box but I am a dog person :) plus there is no ammonia odor what so ever in that room. We keep that box as well as our other animal areas very clean.

There is nothing worse than smelling a cat box in a home except possibly smelling a protein skimmer being cleaned out.

Will post back if anything changes.
 
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