check these out apollo reef led's

off topic here . i am not talking about reef tanks . think when they really start using them mainstream . not the crude ones they have out now .like in recess lighting fixtures , any light fixture , comercial lighting . the difference in power consumtion is incredible , nevermind the effects . the quaity is awesome . i hate flouresent lighting in home applications it gives me a headache . it really has a long way to come . the price will really come down once it is being installed in homes on a mainstream basis . how could it not it .
 
the price will really come down once it is being installed in homes on a mainstream basis . how could it not it .

When the countries that hold the raw materials for LEDs figure out they are sitting on gold mines, that is when the price could potential go up. Most LEDs still need platinum or gold.
 
Pics?

I don't think i have seen the Radium 14Ks most use the 20Ks because they have the best color and keep a high PAR.

And what T5s were you using? T5s are really best with parabolic reflectors. If you just retro some cheap brand T5 lamps on a slab of wood, then yeh i can see the LEDs appearing to be better.

I guess I am still not convinced, I need to see long term proof. I know LEDs can grow and I know LEDs will get you some kind of color. But to go and say it is as good as(or better) a halide or T5 that has been specifically made for corals photosynthetic needs is hard to believe.
 
Hey Dublo,
Well the answer has to do with first of all how big the LED itself is. Then the materials the high power LED is built on(called the substrate) is very different and more expensive. Then the packaging, heat sinks are different. Finally there is the phosphor that is used to turn the high energy UV light into the white light you see. It all adds up.

I highly doubt we will see 10X more improvement in terms of pure output. Current LEDs coming out of the labs have efficiencies around 150 lumens/watt. Theoretical max is ~ 250 lumens/W. So we are halfway to theoretical output. Output will increase by tieing more units together in stars etc but the efficiency isn't increasing by doing that.

Price will continue to come down but will be more a function of the substrates they can use and making the LEDs on bigger wafers so you get more parts for the same manufacturing cost. Which is again the substrates. To give you an example computer chips are made on 12" diameter substrates for an effective area of 144. The high power LEDs are made on substrates 6" in diameter for an effective area of 36. So 4X more expensive if everything else is equal which it is not.


Im not a tight wad by any means but I as well think LED is an expensive tech that needs to start dropping prices. If I can get some small LEDs from radio shack for 10 cents than what is keeping these LED's in the $5-6 range? I'm sorry but I'm not buying the R&D line of BS. a descent name brand 250w MH cost roughly $75 but LEDs cost 4-5 times more for the same amount of light. I understand the pricing on AI units and such but just individual LEDs is $$$


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- Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Hey Dublo,
Well the answer has to do with first of all how big the LED itself is. Then the materials the high power LED is built on(called the substrate) is very different and more expensive. Then the packaging, heat sinks are different. Finally there is the phosphor that is used to turn the high energy UV light into the white light you see. It all adds up.

I highly doubt we will see 10X more improvement in terms of pure output. Current LEDs coming out of the labs have efficiencies around 150 lumens/watt. Theoretical max is ~ 250 lumens/W. So we are halfway to theoretical output. Output will increase by tieing more units together in stars etc but the efficiency isn't increasing by doing that.

Price will continue to come down but will be more a function of the substrates they can use and making the LEDs on bigger wafers so you get more parts for the same manufacturing cost. Which is again the substrates. To give you an example computer chips are made on 12" diameter substrates for an effective area of 144. The high power LEDs are made on substrates 6" in diameter for an effective area of 36. So 4X more expensive if everything else is equal which it is not.


I'd listen to Phil. He knows what he is talking about.

However, why are LEDS manufactured on 6" wafers? Is it because of demand is not high enough? Or is it because FAB with 12" wafer capability are constraint because they are making higher end units, like CPUs?
 
Hey Dublo,
Well the answer has to do with first of all how big the LED itself is. Then the materials the high power LED is built on(called the substrate) is very different and more expensive. Then the packaging, heat sinks are different. Finally there is the phosphor that is used to turn the high energy UV light into the white light you see. It all adds up.

I highly doubt we will see 10X more improvement in terms of pure output. Current LEDs coming out of the labs have efficiencies around 150 lumens/watt. Theoretical max is ~ 250 lumens/W. So we are halfway to theoretical output. Output will increase by tieing more units together in stars etc but the efficiency isn't increasing by doing that.

Price will continue to come down but will be more a function of the substrates they can use and making the LEDs on bigger wafers so you get more parts for the same manufacturing cost. Which is again the substrates. To give you an example computer chips are made on 12" diameter substrates for an effective area of 144. The high power LEDs are made on substrates 6" in diameter for an effective area of 36. So 4X more expensive if everything else is equal which it is not.

Thx phil, I understand, it being a new tech and all, I think i'm just more frustrated at the fact that anything new such as led which is now in the mainstream is so darn expensive. It bothers me that we want to advance our hobby but yet they don't make everything as accessible as it could be. I know it's an expensive hobby(believe me I know LOL). The marineland fixtures for example are a pretty dang good price, yet nowhere near the amount of output that any of us need. T5's are a great option still and at the peak of their time IMO but I refuse to change the bulbs out or to get something that is only compatible with one tank size. I considered getting a 8 bulb fixture but after adding up the costs of bulb changes and also with me contemplating setting up a larger tank in the next couple months, I kind of talked myself out of it. I have one MH now that covers my breeder and is more than enough light. T5 would work but if I upgrade tanks I have to get a new fixture and would rather use that money to buy more coral, fish, rocks, whatever. I'm fine with MH (for now) and I'll stick with them til the time comes to either change bulbs or to upgrade my tank.

What do you guys think of the kessill led lighting?

They are currently at the top of my list. I have seen them in person and they blow me away. I love them to death and I want them very badly. I just wish they made one more equivalent to a 250w MH to penetrate deeper tanks. Very very nice LED. 100% sold on them and since they come from the horticulture world you know they are going to be pretty good. I have read many threads and articles on them (many coming from the "growers") and they seem to be pretty well respected in that group of people. I'm looking forward to some other models coming out soon as well.
 
Hey Van,
It's because they are on GaN wafers. 6" is standard for GaN. 8" is not yet. Some are still on 4".
 
It's the same with all new tech. It's always super expensive when it first enters the market.
Like my a DVD play was $600. Or a plasma TV was $10k. Now you can by a Blue ray player for $80 & a 60" 1080I LED TV for $1,500. Like I mentioned before. Just wait a few more years & if the light fixtures will be 10X better with way more lighting options, and the prices will drop at min of 30%

That's what I was wondering, if an LED tv costs 1,500 and consists of more leds and better quality probably, than why are these 3 watters so damn expensive. LED's have been around for years, and the prices are still very high. Especially when I look at posts from say '05 where people say "just wait a few years and the prices will be very low". Lol, almost 7 years later they're just as high. But I guess that's just how the world is. People have to make up the money somehow for their lost money, just like electric cars, they have to make up the lost money on gas somewhere. As well as for LED's, who will make the money from frequent bulb changes? In my opinion it will stay expensive and the prices won't drop much over a very long time.
 
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That's what I was wondering, if an LED tv costs 1,500 and consists of more leds and better quality probably, than why are these 3 watters so damn expensive. LED's have been around for years, and the prices are still very high. Especially when I look at posts from say '05 where people say "just wait a few years and the prices will be very low". Lol, almost 7 years later they're just as high. But I guess that's just how the world is. People have to make up the money somehow for their lost money, just like electric cars, they have to make up the lost money on gas somewhere. As well as for LED's, who will make the money from frequent bulb changes? In my opinion it will stay expensive and the prices won't drop much over a very long time.

I agree. However, on the bulb change subject. Even though you aren't supposed to have failure after 10k hours or whatever they are claiming. I see more and more people switching from their current LED setup to the new better led product when they come out. Especially with the maxspec led's. I have seen several of those people switching to the new mazara version. Same with the AI folks. When I see a descent LED fixture come out with a price point of lets say a tek fixture, i'll be all in. I also need more color than just freakin blue because it mutes the reds, purples and pinks. :debi:
 
I also need more color than just freakin blue because it mutes the reds, purples and pinks. :debi:


You and colors again.... I guess I don't understand how mh gives a different color than LEDs. Last I checked you could only get mh bulbs in a particular color ranging From white to a royal blue. By dimming your LEDs I feel like you can acquire the same color as mh. I also disagree that it mutes the reds, pinks and purples, I'm going to have to post a video of my pink rics under my LEDs, that should change your mind:lmao:
 
You and colors again.... I guess I don't understand how mh gives a different color than LEDs. Last I checked you could only get mh bulbs in a particular color ranging From white to a royal blue. By dimming your LEDs I feel like you can acquire the same color as mh. I also disagree that it mutes the reds, pinks and purples, I'm going to have to post a video of my pink rics under my LEDs, that should change your mind:lmao:

It's all about the wavelengths. And a quality aquarium halide is still king when it comes to providing a FULL and necessary wavelength. LEDs will give you bits and pieces. Blue and white is a good start for LEDs, now some of the more advanced LED fixtures are providing UV LED which is another step in the right direction.
 
Thank you Frick, yes to me it's all about the color. The only thing we can do is mix different bulb combos to get the color were looking for. Just like T5s or halides with supplementation. LED is coming around but for right now I'm not into the all blue look.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
It's all about the wavelengths. And a quality aquarium halide is still king when it comes to providing a FULL and necessary wavelength. LEDs will give you bits and pieces. Blue and white is a good start for LEDs, now some of the more advanced LED fixtures are providing UV LED which is another step in the right direction.

It's hard for me to believe they do not provide the full necessary wavelength, since I have personally witnessed very promising results with LEDs. I do not undertand this argument, are you saying certain corals can not be grown under LEDs? Are corals one day going to start to decline, when they realize the light wavelengths are not correct?
I consider anemones to be one of the most sensitive invertebrates when considering lighting needs. Here is a thread that shows three anemones that are absolutely thriving under LEDs. These three anemones (2 are s. Gigantea and 1 is an s. Hadonni) are known to be very picky about there lighting needs.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1986266
 
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