clownfish hybrids?

[kypatriot]

I have a large female Australian clown and a smaller male tomato, which have become a mated pair. I saw them spawn a couple days ago, and the male has been tending to the eggs since.

Is there any way for these fish to produce offspring? I understand that if they did, they would be sterile (different species), but I didn't know if viable offspring could possibly arise from their "union".

 

[jnowell]

Really only one way to find out....raise them! No telling what you might get, I'm not sure how I feel on the whole hybrid/crossbreeding thing, but being as it's done, no harm in trying. I don't believe that all combos are sterile, but I've really only researched seahorses with good scientific data, haven't found (or searched that much) for similar info on clowns.

 

[Atticus]

You won't find that info on clowns... We are not on the cutting edge, we are the cutting edge.

 

[phender]

It is becoming apparent through situations like yours and many others, that clownfish don't seem to care about the human definition of a species. Clownfish readily hybridize in captivity and occasionally in nature. (White cap clowns are very likely hybrids) White caps have been bred in captivity, and although the young have been difficult to raise, they have been grown to adulthood. Some of the other captive hybrids documented have been A.melanopus x A. ephippium; A. ocellaris x A. frenatus: A. ocellaris x A. percula; P. biaculeatus x A. ocellaris; A. polynmus x A. sebae. The suspected parents of white caps (A. leucokranos) are A. chrysopterus x A. sandaracinos. A. theillei is also likely a hybrid, most likely from an A. ocellaris x one of the skunk type clowns.

BTW: What are you considering an Australian Clown? Is it A. rubrocinctus? I'm not trying to be a smart alec. You would be suprized what people have called Australian clowns on this board. It ranges from black ocellaris to melanopus to Latezonatus.

 

[Dman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6715044#post6715044 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Atticus
You won't find that info on clowns... We are not on the cutting edge, we are the cutting edge.

It amazes me that something that's been going on for the better part of 25 years (clownfish breeding) yet here we are, the cutting edge. Very cool being part of that.
Dman

 

[clownfish75]

Half the problem is that the definition of a species is a highly debated point, depending on where you are in the hirarchy/complexity of the animal.

Could a Australian clown be an A. akyndinos?

Christian

 

[sunfishh]

I am not trying to start trouble, but why hybrids? I am a purest and think that hybrids should be avoided when possible. I relize that some hybrids occur in nature (townshed (sp) angel), but why produce something that is not natural and then put it in your reef tank where you are try to duplicate nature? Just my two cents Good luck with whatever you do.

 

[kypatriot]

I didn't know that there was debate about the definition of a species. I've taken many more biology courses than I would ever want to, and I was taught that to be the same species, two organisms would have to be able to produce virile offspring (among other criteria).

Nonetheless, my medical-education-induced growing disdain for PhD's would not in any way leave me surprised to learn that two supposedly separate species are actually variants of the same one.

The Australian clown I have isn't the A. akyndinos - it has only 1 white bar and the entire body is uniformly a dark red color, including the fins. I think it's an A. rubrocinctus

I thought she was an A. frenatus, just an older one, because I read that they get darker & the white band turns bluish (hers is) with age. So I got a small tomato & they took to each other immediately.

After I read more, and as I have seen the tomato age some (getting a darker body while the fins are lighter), I don't think she is the same, especially considering the color of her fins.

So as to making hybrids, I didn't really intend to. Now that they have spawned, I was going to see if it might be worth the time/energy to try to raise the larvae.

 

[sunfishh]

So as to making hybrids, I didn't really intend to. Now that they have spawned, I was going to see if it might be worth the time/energy to try to raise the larvae.

Is this just intelletual curiosity? If so I think its fine. It does bum me out when people try to market their Frankenclowns. I guess ultimately they have the right to do it. Just don't expect me to buy them

 

[phender]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6734070#post6734070 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kypatriot
........ I was taught that to be the same species, two organisms would have to be able to produce virile offspring (among other criteria)........

One of the other criteria is that the two species cannot interbreed because of geographical separation or different breeding seasons or they live in different anemones in this case, which tends to prevent interbreeding. Realize too, that the species designation is just a label designed to show relationships. Clownfish are not the only "species" that breaks to rules. Dogs, wolves, coyotes, dingos and possibly jackels are all classified as different species, but all can interbreed and produce fertile offspring.
FWIW: some closely related angelfish and tangs could be included with these "rebels" as well.

 

[NicoleC]

Is this just intelletual curiosity? If so I think its fine. It does bum me out when people try to market their Frankenclowns. I guess ultimately they have the right to do it. Just don't expect me to buy them

Which is an activity which financially supports the research of captive breeding of new species. I think it is no coincidence that the marketing of mis-bars and hybrids happened to occur right before a lot of new tank raised species became commercially viable. No one seems to get upset about ORA's cleaner goby hybrid. :rolleye1:

I feel no attraction to the clown hybrids I've seen yet, but I'll cast no stones at anyone doing the work. They are "marine ornamentals," and no one is releasing them into the wild to affect wild populations. Fish breeders are virtually the only ones doing research on these kinds of species. Research funds go to fish you can EAT.

Intellectual curiosity has never solved a single scientific issue. Eventually, one must get in the trenches and experiment.

 

[Kathy55g]

People will buy Frankenclowns if they are attractive enough. Misbars can be very charming, and some cannot even tell that a fish has Lordosis. These are sold as pets, as ornamental fish, so beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[clownfish75]

One theory for species definition is that 2 species cant cross and produce viable reproductive ofspring, but this idea is broken so often it isnt funny, people seem to get theilli and luks to breed when they shouldnt if that definition was correct.

One other more new age way to determine species is to look at genetic variation, so taking perculas and ocellaris, you would expect to see some defined genetic variation between these 2 species, but given their co occurence in certain areas includeing the GBR and the presence of the black variant in darwin, it would be interesting to see what variation there actually is over their range and how the black ocellaris fits in the picture.

I know people who could do it, anyone want to fund it?

Christian

 

[sunfishh]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6736425#post6736425 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kathy55g
People will buy Frankenclowns if they are attractive enough. Misbars can be very charming, and some cannot even tell that a fish has Lordosis. These are sold as pets, as ornamental fish, so beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

You nailed it. No doubt there is a market for hybrids. I am simply not part of that market because I prefer the actual species. I wonder why people try to improve on nature when nature is so amazing already.

As for the situation in Austraila I suspect that in nature behavior prevents the clowns from interbreeding. It would be pretty easy to run their DNA through a gel and compare the three species bars to a clown found in say the philipeans

Nicole nice to see we are neighbors even if we have a minor disagreement on this issue

 

[ediaz]

Frankenclowns!
Ha!

 

[mark97r6]

These would be interesting to see, and no doubt that they would be very marketable!
I aint sure how i feel about this either though. Although curiosity does get the better of me, i would hate to see our clowns become the next corn snakes or leopard geckos!

Just my thoughts!
Mark

 

[emoutz]

My inital thought was that, given that we are keeping these animals as pets and they dont have an effect on any natural system, why not hybridize them? Hell, why not selectively breed them so that the clowns we keep are hardier and easier to breed than they currently are (which is effectively, I guess, probably what we are doing by breeding them in captivity). Same with corals. I think it would be wonderful if, in 50 years, corals cost 3-4 bucks a pop and the average ten year old could keep them in his 10 gallon tank with a minimum of trouble. Unlikely, but it could be a good thing.

 

[Coraldynamics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6734070#post6734070 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kypatriot
I thought she was an A. frenatus, just an older one, because I read that they get darker & the white band turns bluish (hers is) with age. So I got a small tomato & they took to each other immediately.

Sounds like an A. melanopus. Can you post some pics of her? Blue-ish bar...darker fins...dark red color... hmmmm

 

[Luis A M]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6736778#post6736778 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by clownfish75
so taking perculas and ocellaris, you would expect to see some defined genetic variation between these 2 species, but given their co occurence in certain areas includeing the GBR
Christian

They donÃ"šÃ‚´t co-occur,where did you get the reference?

Since Hoff in the 70Ã"šÃ‚´s members of the tomato group (frenatus,melanopus,rubrocinctus and ephippium) were frequently hybridized giving fertile offspring.

For more on clown hybrids see:http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=697673&highlight=hybrid

 

[clownfish75]

They donÃ"šÃ‚´t co-occur,where did you get the reference?

I dont have a reference for it, since no one seems interested in knowing it.

BUt i have seen it many many times, and i constantly have to sort through pairs of local caught fish both percs and ocellaris. So something is happening.

Christian