Cyano & Alkalinity
- Thread starter jimnrose
- Start date
My tankis only 5 months old and when cyano first showed up I increased the water changes (already have plenty of water movement) but the problem kept getting worse. I gave up with just the water changes and used Ultrafife's Red Slime remover. The first dose cut back the bacteria but it needed a second application which I just started yesterday. My lfs said incrasing the alkalinity (using Reef Builder) to 12 dhK would help as well.
Thanks, Jim
Thanks, Jim
dan223
Custom User Title
If your PH was lower than normal for a given KH, as in you had elevated CO2, then removing the CO2 would raise your ph without adding kh. In that case I believe increasing your ph may help with cyano, due to removing the excess co2 that could be fueling it. The more I think about it Ive seen more than a few reef tanks with low nutrients, high flow and do not carbon dose, as in vodka or pellets or whatever but do use calcium reactors which usually does end up dosing carbon in the form of co2 which is easily taken up by many algae esp some cyano.
I just dont buy the generic cure of you need to lower your nitrate or phosphate. Do you run a cal reactor? Have good surface agitation or large area for gas exchange? Big skimmer with fresh air flow? These things will all help offgass excess co2
"These differences may appear surprising at first for a photoautotrophic organism which requires only light, carbon dioxide and mineral salts for growth and which lives in an environment made uniform by the movement of the water." http://www.genoscope.cns.fr/spip/Prochlorococcus-marinus-smallest.html
I just dont buy the generic cure of you need to lower your nitrate or phosphate. Do you run a cal reactor? Have good surface agitation or large area for gas exchange? Big skimmer with fresh air flow? These things will all help offgass excess co2
"These differences may appear surprising at first for a photoautotrophic organism which requires only light, carbon dioxide and mineral salts for growth and which lives in an environment made uniform by the movement of the water." http://www.genoscope.cns.fr/spip/Prochlorococcus-marinus-smallest.html
I have a 125 gal display with pH of 8.3. Water flows to/from sump at 800gph with a Oct-x 200 skimmer plus carbon and GFO reactors. Also have 3 Koralia 4powerheads. I have a light bioload and don't carbon dose or have a calcium reactor. I realize the using a red slime remover is only a temproary fix until I get rid of the problem & chemistry isn't my strong suite. Boy do I need guilence
HighlandReefer
Team RC
Does the cyano only grow on your substrate. What kind of substrate do you have, sand?
It starts on the sand (very fine white) but when it can also grow on the rock lower surfaces. I have a goood water flow but the fine sand prevents me from concentrating the flow direction at the sand. It grows where there is good light. I didn't cut back on the lighting (LED's @ modest intensity) which is stepped up to a 6 hour maximum. I'm sure there is a water parameter problem but my test kit isn't showing the discrepancy. I can tell because when I added a frog spawn & tongue they are not fully extending but I don't think it's from lack of light. Jim
Jim, I have similar issues with cyano. 90% of my cyano grows on the substrate. I replaced my 1 1400gph power head with two 750 gph evolution powerheads.
The result didn't seem to change the cyano. I turned off the lights and reduced the photoperiod to 4 or 5 hours a day from 11 hours for 2 or 3 days. This caused the cyano to receed some, and the substrate to turn white from brown. (brown algae I assume. )
After 3 days of this, I went back to a regular photo period, same thing, cyano grew back and the brown ucky looking algae was back on mainly the sand. It grew faster this time and shrouded an entire rock (small one about 4" in diameter if that), and started covering another free standing rock near it. I pulled both rocks out and washed them in fresh RO water. Put them both back in the tank. Cyano continued growing on the sand, not on the rocks.
So, I said I'm finally done with cyano, I'm going to take more steps. I bought a 6400k CFL bulb (60watt) put it over my sump, got some Chaeto put it in my sump, and waited.
Sunday was exactly 1 week since I introduced the Chaeto to my tank. As of yesterday, the sand is looking whiter, the cyano is now just limited to a couple shells in the sand bed, and has stopped regrowing on the sand. I would go to the point of saying that in under a week's time it has receeded.
I haven't done any water changes in the last month or changed any other parameters significantly. I top off around 1 to 2 gallons daily. my alk tends to remain between 9 and 10. Ph tends to remain stable around 8.2.
The water also seems to look a lot clearer / cleaner. I have a 55g with 14g sump, and my tank is around 4 .5 months old now. With only 3 fish.
I seem to be noticing very positive results from the macro algae.
The result didn't seem to change the cyano. I turned off the lights and reduced the photoperiod to 4 or 5 hours a day from 11 hours for 2 or 3 days. This caused the cyano to receed some, and the substrate to turn white from brown. (brown algae I assume. )
After 3 days of this, I went back to a regular photo period, same thing, cyano grew back and the brown ucky looking algae was back on mainly the sand. It grew faster this time and shrouded an entire rock (small one about 4" in diameter if that), and started covering another free standing rock near it. I pulled both rocks out and washed them in fresh RO water. Put them both back in the tank. Cyano continued growing on the sand, not on the rocks.
So, I said I'm finally done with cyano, I'm going to take more steps. I bought a 6400k CFL bulb (60watt) put it over my sump, got some Chaeto put it in my sump, and waited.
Sunday was exactly 1 week since I introduced the Chaeto to my tank. As of yesterday, the sand is looking whiter, the cyano is now just limited to a couple shells in the sand bed, and has stopped regrowing on the sand. I would go to the point of saying that in under a week's time it has receeded.
I haven't done any water changes in the last month or changed any other parameters significantly. I top off around 1 to 2 gallons daily. my alk tends to remain between 9 and 10. Ph tends to remain stable around 8.2.
The water also seems to look a lot clearer / cleaner. I have a 55g with 14g sump, and my tank is around 4 .5 months old now. With only 3 fish.
I seem to be noticing very positive results from the macro algae.
While cyano can live with just CO2, water and light since it can fix nitrogen, it thrives when free nutrients are available to it, ie, PO4 and NO3. Controlling these will help keep it down in most cases. In my experience, lowering PO4 via gfo use is very helpful.
My problem with cyano started in my fuge (29 gal) which was plumbed to the fuge via 80 gph of flow. The chaeto wasn't growing & the light (9w, CF 5000K) was on 12 cycle. I took the fuge off line when the cyano showed up in the display about 3 weeks later. I have carbon and GFO reactors in the sump. My guess is that the base rock may be emitting PO4 Tank only 5 months old & I nitric washed the base rock about 10 weeks ago). I have about 120# of base & 40#of live rock. My test results (API) for both PO4 & NO3 are 0.
Again, I know there is a problem somewhere and cyano is only the warning sign.
Jim
Again, I know there is a problem somewhere and cyano is only the warning sign.
Jim
Some types of cyanobacteria can fix nitrogen from the air, but many cannot. They all will require phosphorus from the water column in comparatively large amounts, so that can be a useful point of attack. Sometimes, macroalgae can do the job. Other people find a GFO reactor useful.
I doubt that any cyanobacteria are limited by carbon in our tanks. The pH needs to be very, very high before that become an issue. Phytoplankton can raise the pH above 10 when grown in tubes, for example. Raising the pH might help other organisms grow better and thus outcompete the cyanobacteria, but I suspect that's a secondary effect.
I doubt that any cyanobacteria are limited by carbon in our tanks. The pH needs to be very, very high before that become an issue. Phytoplankton can raise the pH above 10 when grown in tubes, for example. Raising the pH might help other organisms grow better and thus outcompete the cyanobacteria, but I suspect that's a secondary effect.
dan223
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I wont repeat the point again after this, but to keep going after phosphate I think is way to broad and of an answer, there is study after study showing how cyano can outcompete other algae in the ocean when nutrient starved. If cyano can flourish in the oceans conditions of "ULNS" then I think we need to open other possibilities. Here is a quote from another study "Owing to their different nutrient uptake strategies, Synechococcus sp. WH7803
is at a competitive advantage, with regard to Pi acquisition, over T.weissflogii
under conditions of Pi starvation." Now thats starvation at the oceans levels which are much lower than our tanks to begin with.
To the OP I have used chemiclean with great results and without a comeback of it, my phos levels were 0.00 before and with the cyano and 0.00 months after it was gone. I believe I introduced it with a frag. But knowing my nutrient levels are low, I wouldnt hesitate to use it again not that Id want to. http://plankt.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/19/12/1793.pdf
is at a competitive advantage, with regard to Pi acquisition, over T.weissflogii
under conditions of Pi starvation." Now thats starvation at the oceans levels which are much lower than our tanks to begin with.
To the OP I have used chemiclean with great results and without a comeback of it, my phos levels were 0.00 before and with the cyano and 0.00 months after it was gone. I believe I introduced it with a frag. But knowing my nutrient levels are low, I wouldnt hesitate to use it again not that Id want to. http://plankt.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/19/12/1793.pdf
I agree that cyanobacteria often seem to be able to compete very well for phosphorus in the water column, but I've also seen a lot of reports of success with various nutrient control approach. Chemi-Clean has been known to crash tanks, and I'd avoid it, but it might be useful in some very particular situations. I still don't think that limiting carbon dioxide in the tank is a useful approach.
I'm still trying to figure out what caused the putbreak. It started in te fuge which only had chaeto and a few snails & crabs. The cheato wasn't growing and in fact is half the size over the past 4 months. I tried increasing the water flow, changing the light source but didn't see any brown cheato so I discounted this as a risk.
I finished the second treatment of 'Red Slime Remover' but will apply another treatment if there is any sign of cyano reappearing. I picked up Reef Biofuel (carbon source) & MicrBacteria (bioculture) hoping this treatment will help.
I know there is a water quality issue other than cyano because some frags aren't growing very well.
Thaks for all the help. Jim
I finished the second treatment of 'Red Slime Remover' but will apply another treatment if there is any sign of cyano reappearing. I picked up Reef Biofuel (carbon source) & MicrBacteria (bioculture) hoping this treatment will help.
I know there is a water quality issue other than cyano because some frags aren't growing very well.
Thaks for all the help. Jim
HighlandReefer
Team RC
One thing about cyano is that they are very effective at chemical warfare as a group. Some produce very toxic chemicals as warfare agents as is demonstrated by their toxic blooms produced in the ocean. Bacteria can do this too, but in general not as well as the cyano, at least it seems this way with the ones we most often deal with in a reef tank. Once the cyano establish themselves on your rock and sand, their warfare agents prevent bacteria from entering the areas they occupy. This is a good reason to stay on top of the cyano and keep it out of your tank, especially the rock you want bacteria to colonize.
Cyano are among the best at colonizing live rock, since they have adapted to derive their phosphate needs from the organic materials in your water column. So in other words, you may not have much inorganic phosphate in your water column, but the amount of organic phosphate can be significantly higher. Most hobby grade test kits do not provide readings for organophosphate. This is a good reason to run GAC effectively and keep the organics down as much as possible along with good skimming, which will remove suspended organics. Boomer has recommended the use of diatom filter to help rid cyano for this reason. Diatom filters can remove very small particle size suspended organics from your water column. This makes sense to me when fighting a cyano problem.
Why do we find so often that cyano tend to be more of a problem in reef tanks on the sand bed and bottom layer of the reef tank? IMHO, this is due to the fact that most of the organic debris such as left over fish food, fish excrement & organic material that separates from other parts of the tank end up dropping to the lower areas of the tank. The more water flow one has, the less will drop and will be skimmed out. Some always ends up there and this organic material drops down into the top layer of your sand bed and on rock. I find that if one takes their hand and swishes it at the top of the sand bed and around the rock, this helps to trying and get this debris out. I would do this after you siphon these areas. Siphoning the very top layer of the sand will help pull these organics out which eliminates this as a food source for the cyano. Doing this will rid the organics (food supply in the area where cyano gets enough light. Lower in the sand, no light penetrates and bacteria can outcompete the cyano. I find that doing the hand swishing daily around the rock and sand can help a lot when fighting cyano.
Cyano are among the best at colonizing live rock, since they have adapted to derive their phosphate needs from the organic materials in your water column. So in other words, you may not have much inorganic phosphate in your water column, but the amount of organic phosphate can be significantly higher. Most hobby grade test kits do not provide readings for organophosphate. This is a good reason to run GAC effectively and keep the organics down as much as possible along with good skimming, which will remove suspended organics. Boomer has recommended the use of diatom filter to help rid cyano for this reason. Diatom filters can remove very small particle size suspended organics from your water column. This makes sense to me when fighting a cyano problem.
Why do we find so often that cyano tend to be more of a problem in reef tanks on the sand bed and bottom layer of the reef tank? IMHO, this is due to the fact that most of the organic debris such as left over fish food, fish excrement & organic material that separates from other parts of the tank end up dropping to the lower areas of the tank. The more water flow one has, the less will drop and will be skimmed out. Some always ends up there and this organic material drops down into the top layer of your sand bed and on rock. I find that if one takes their hand and swishes it at the top of the sand bed and around the rock, this helps to trying and get this debris out. I would do this after you siphon these areas. Siphoning the very top layer of the sand will help pull these organics out which eliminates this as a food source for the cyano. Doing this will rid the organics (food supply in the area where cyano gets enough light. Lower in the sand, no light penetrates and bacteria can outcompete the cyano. I find that doing the hand swishing daily around the rock and sand can help a lot when fighting cyano.
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Tracey2
New member
I think maybe your kh test is not accurate, my frogspawn doesn't like kh to drop much. I had red slime, I was trying to fight with water changes, flow, lighting and nothing worked until I increased kh, built an algae turf scrubber and stopped doing so many water changes. I think the water changes were somehow feeding the slime, maybe changing water parameters too much. My advice is increase kh slowly, manually remove what you can, have a spot for alge to grow and eat nutrients and slow down feeding a bit. Good luck.
Thaks Cliff & Tracey for your inputs. I have finished the red slime remover treatment and the cyano appears to be removed. I have turned on my skimmer, plus the GFO & GAC reactors & will add kalkwassen tomorrow. I'll also try to make sure I'm not overfeeding plus try to syphon off the solids that aren't getting pulled into the skimmer via the overflow system. I also increased the alkalinity to 11.5. Jim
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