Dedicated tanks macros in its infancy for hobby?

[Beruka]

I have been reading several sources of info on macro algaes and find a great deal of the information inadequate for running a system dedicated to growing delicated species such as Scroll or even halimedia.

I have run a freshwater tank for a number of years and can grow most any fresh water aquatic vascular plant. I add macronutrients and micronutrients on a daily basis to the freshwater tank. The recipe is well known containg KSO4, KNO3 and MgSO4 primarily, along with Fe chelates in small amounts.
I generally keep the freshwater parameters around 3-5 ppm NO3, 0 ppm PO4, 20-50 ppm K, and 0.1 ppm Fe+2. I have seen several mentions of iron additions. I have access to powdered Fe-Heedta for alkaline stability.

I get the impression unless fish are fed constantly the marine species may fade if nutrient parameters are not maintained. Guilliards F/2 solution for growing micro floating algaes is well known to have a one week, boom and crash cycle with a one time dosage for zooplankton culture.

I might suggest using a recipe for macro-algae growth as:

targeting constant parameters as

5 ppm NO3
0.05 ppm Fe+2
20+ ppm K (I don't know if this becomes depleted as FW does)

I was hoping I am reinventing the wheel. Has anyone done this?

As far as I know Florida Aqua Farms has come the closest but the Plant Fuel(tm) recipe is not shared. It contains micronutrients only and Na NO3 are added separately.

 

[Plantbrain]

I grow only maqcro algae and seagrasses.
I add KNO3 weekly

I have a few shrimps and crabs and a fish or two. A number of Turbo snails.

There are other hitchikers that have come in but these add to the pool of nutrients.

These tanks can look great as a Refugium but I would rather work towards keeping these as their own type of Marine tank.

My tank is quite dramatic.
But much like reef tanks, high Ca, alkalinity, consistent nutrient inputs(fish feeding, some dosing etc) is required.

I'm leary suggesting a routine as of yet.
I need to get a high level of competence and be able to reproduce the tanks again and again.

I did this approach 15 years ago with FW plant tanks.

I have just started producing really nice MARINE PLANTED tanks and will post some photo's next week.

99% of the people think this is a reef tank, but there is not a critter beside the above mentioned in the the tank, they are all macro's.................

I have around 40 species.

Regards,

Tom Barr

 

[Beruka]

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your responce. I am glad to hear your responce!

Do you administer carbon dioxide? Would you expect potassium depletion with NaNO3 supplimetation?

Finally, what types of micro algaes do you find persistent in a mature and maintained system?

Thanks

Drew

 

[Plantbrain]

Why would I use CO2 except for a Kalk reactor in a marine tank?
Marine plants use HCO3 primarily in the marine ecosystems, not CO2 as their carbon source. Adding CO2 would lower the pH and dissolve away CaCO3 shells and body parts, substrate etc and release lots of CO3 and Ca into solution.

This dissolution process is best resolve with a Kalk reactor for replacement dosing.

Adding CO2 to help algae growth will work with some species, but most do fine with lots of light, deep substrate, cleaner shrimps, turbo snails etc.

I have considered adding CO2, I have plenty and have extra needle valves etc but Ca and CO3 are more important to add routinely vs CO2 etc.

I use CaCl2 for Ca additions and add some Kalkwasser.

K+ is pretty high in Seawater and higher plants need a bit more, KCL, K2SO4 etc will work well if you want to add some.

KNO3, aka Stump Emove adds a fair amount relative to NO3, I doubt you'd need more in a Marine tank ever.

KCL is eeasy to find as non sodium softener salt, run 5-9$ for 50 lbs(Lifetime supply).

Adding 1/4 teaspoon per 50 gal once a week is enough but this would depend on the water change routines iof build up occurs.
That would be the main concern since the test kits for K are costly and not very accurate.

Diatoms and "glass algae" are the more bothersome, occasionally Batophora outbreaks.

It takes work to keeop the tank up and going.

I'll post some images shortly of my first scaped Marine Plant tank.

I'll do more later but it took me a while to get to this stage so I want to see how long I can keep it looking good now it's in good shape.

I think I need more light really.
Some Macros will grow fine at less light, but I think light is my limiting factor here.

More light = more uptake generally so adding more light would help elucidate nutrient uptake better.

But this is a two edge sword, if something goes wrong, you get nasty algae much faster also................

But I'm good at getting rid of that. I'll tell you do not want to ghet good at algae removal if you can help it...........it's a painful road.

I worked out some great routines for FW plant tanks, I'm still working on Marine tanks.

I'm at the "I can keep it at a high level of plant health and good design etc" but I need to be able to reproduce it many times and understandn the parameters better for a more general approach and advice on culture of these wonderful Marine plants.

This is my goal at the moment.

Current also removes many problem algae well and "fluffing" the plants routinely also keeps them clean.

These plants are in very high current regions, higher than many corals(Plants are often in shallower waters vs Corals) about 1 meter or so.

Margret Hopson did a studying on algae removal by swirling a plant in a flask for 30 seconds and 45, 60 sec etc, about 80% of the algae was removed from this physical action.

Not bad.

General stuff:
Lots of light, current, high Ca, good alkalinity, STABLE temps(cool, about 74-78F or so), deep substrate for Caulerpa, Penecillus etc.
Good fish/critter loads(adds nutrients), add food consistently.
Add iron every so often(weekly is likely okay), NO3 1-5ppm or so, PO4, I'm not sure yet. I added a lot and it did not do much till I also added iron around the same time, I'd say things are okay with low or limited PO4 unless you have lots of plant removal/trimmings etc. Cleaner fish/shrimps, snailies and get in and do some manual work weekly.

Water changes can do well, but folks with Marine tanks think water changes are a no no, but reef and macro tanks do well with it. Works well with smaller tanks.

Don't skim much/too much(Removes some nutrients in organic forms which will be broken down later into plant food). Let the plants do their job.

Good photo skills and tricks for aquascaping shows/contest. FW Plant folks are good at this and the level has come up a long way in the USA recently so I'd like to see the saem thing happen to Marine planted tanks.

Patience, patience and more of patience.
Come on down to the Marine field trip, you'll find no less than 40 species and see excactly what they like. And you'll have fun.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Beruka]

I have worked out a good routine for maintaining FW plants with good consistent growth. I was getting some nusance threadlike algae growth from too much iron but took it out for two weeks and the tank only grows trace amount of spot algae on the glass. My success realy only came when I started using a Eheim Liquidoser to administer nutrients. This device is almost indespensible for this tank. I just fill it up weekly and it doses 3ml/day of a self made fertilizer mix.

Your information is very helpful about macro growth. I have found that high current helps considerably too.

Early attempts to grow macros completely failed as the plants did not grow. My thoughts were too little light, too light current, or even too little nutrients. I had a one month boom in calupera growth followed by it dying off entirely.

The attached refugium had no other nutrient inputs other than being tied to a reef tank will excellent water quality.based on LaMotte test kits.

I used 2 55w PC bulbs over a 20 gallon acrylic tank that was 18" tall with a square base. The tank had 2-3 turn overs per hour to main sump.

My second attempt to grow grape calupera was more successful. I used an acrylic basket directly under 250w halides in the main tank. The grape calupera growth was where it poked through the basket and had high current. The dormant current within the basket grew hair type alges and no macros consistently.

This annecdotal description indicates direct light (10K 250w type output) with less than one foot of water and high current are benficial. I run the tank at 78F year round. I can never find more than 1 ppm No3, Phosphates are always zero.

I am tryping a KNO3 / IO3 / Fe+2 mixture to start growing macros in a separate tank with no skimming. I may get a small hang on back for this tank if I find it is necessary. I read you do some skimming.

 

[Beruka]

I have several other basic questions on how you run your macro tank. The website on Ecosystems Mud Filter thoroughly confused me, but decided to ignore it.

Do you use activated carbon?

Where were you talking about collecting. I live in central North Carolina?

Drew

 

[Plantbrain]

I live in Northern FL.
I am doing a field trip this June to the Keys for macro and seagrass collecting for hobbyist
(3day).
Also a FW plant fest 4 days earlier.

Color spectrum is much more for your own preferences as far as light for most macros.
They are adapted generally to the upper metter or so, all the light is in the 6000K range or so.

Reef folks are use to the blue and neon colored lights, so they might prefer those colors.

The plants themselves are not that picky about the light, as long as there is enough intensity.

I have not use carbon for 20+ years.

As far FW plants,

http://www.sfbaaps.com/GalleryPicture.aspx?galleryid=14&title=AGA 2001&sortorder=1

I've posted many nice FW tanks over the years, speak every year at clubs or the AGA, write articles etc.

Add a few drops of Fleet enema or KH2PO4 to get rid of your green spot algae(Coleochaete) 2-3x a week. You will see dramatic plant growth within about 45 minutes.

You do not have an iron limited tank(as far as the algae are concerned) so adding more iron is not directly causing the outbreak
(you cannot have two simultaneous limiting nutrients), something else, eg low CO2, poor NO3(don't trust any NO3 kit to 1ppm) etc. FW plants can use up 3 ppm a day of NO3 in well run tanks.
FW Algae need such small amounts of iron to grow just fine it's way beyond your testing methods and kit's ability, yes, even the 90$ Hach or Lamott kits.

1ppm NO3 would not last long and it would not be enough to supply the plants.

A good general rule of approach: give the plants, FW or SW what they need to grow best, this will curb the extraneous algae issues and focus you on your goal: growing FW and SW plants.

But back to the SW Macro's, I have been using a micron filter once a week and fluff off most of the detritus and suck it out of the system.

This "trick" seems to help also.

I am slowly going through and adding certain elements to the tank step wise and am after what are the max uptake rates for as densely planted Marine tank might be.

I can estimate a general routine from there and use water changes to re set unknown variables.

This method has proven extremely useful with FW and no salt mixing for water changes there(perhaps GH and KH), but on small Marine tanks, it's generally easier than testing the PO4 and NO3.

I am keeping the KNO3 dosage lightly higher, adding traces 2x a week and lots of Ca.

When I add PO4 to a marine tank, I often get a diatom bloom, it can melt the Caulerpa's if I add all three main nutrients(N, P and traces).

Temp also has a negative effect above 80F or so.
I will have a chiller for the summer, that caused me a lot of troubles I think, more than the nutrients.

REGARDS,
TOM BARR

 

[Beruka]

The 250 watt 10K is used not so much as a choice but is what I have left. I really use old 10K hqi from a reef display tank. It may be too much light long term, as it will depleted nutrients too quickly. It just speculation right now. I have used 150 DE but they are 20Ks.

Based on snorkelling trips I done at St. Martin, I have seen most of the macro alges in shallow water sand beds. Many of them get warm in the afternoon tropical sun.

High Light in warm Seawater can be very oxidative. So much so that carbon used for decoloring the display tank might actually make little difference in elimination of potential nutrients. I have had the top 1 foot of boat anchor chain deteriorate extremely fast, but little below three to four feet in depth. This is a common occurance.

This environment might be not hindered by micronutrient removal by carbon. ( I would never use it on a FW planted tank though) I might use it a few days a month on macro tanks to decolor water.

Have you have Chateo deteriorate in any of your experiment tanks? What if anything has worked to revive it?


I have some interesting observations about my FW tank. I move recently and reset up the tank. I continure to use the same fertilizer recipe continuously. I raised alkalinity from a standard 80 ppm to 120ppm and raised controlled pH from 6.7pH to 6.9 pH. The observed result was a noticable shift of the growth rate of different plants.

I am going back to 4kH and pH 6.7 for the next several months to see if the growth shifts the other way. The tank is so low maintenance at this point that it is easy to do.

I looked at your link. Great Photos!. I want to try a Madagascar Lace sometime soon.


Drew

 

[Plantbrain]

Well many approaches in FW plant keeping such as topping off of the nutrients that are supplied in enough quanatity by the critter /fish loads seems like a prudent method here with Marine plants.

Relying solely on the fish load to supply the most/all the nutrients in conjuction with the "mud" substrate is generally the goal for most marine aquarist.

But if they want to focus on their plants more, they may want to take this next step.

I am not complelety comfortable suggesting routines yet like I do with FW plants. But I do know it will happen soon.

I think the sunlight's UV rays release organically bound nutrients slowly. As far as oxidation, well, many of the plants that are "rooted" have access to very reductive conditions in the substrate.

But this redox variation is simple for many/most plants to deal with, they are not static oraganism, they actively go after nutrients.

I don't remove larger organics via carbon but I can see the use some in this case.
I just do water changes.

The Chaetomorpha I have is ball formed only. I have not had issues with it.
Some Caulerpa's have not faired well dfuring the 1 year this tank has been up and running since it's mainly an experiement and I have been dosing all sorts of nutrients and neglected it for awhile.

Those are old tanks from 8-9 years ago concerning FW plants.

I suppose I'll be saying the same about this tank 8-9 years from now

Regards,
Tom Barr