Diatomaceous Earth

[ledford1]

My wife keeps African Violets and has recently been getting into Diatomaceous Earth. For those not familiar, DE is a mined rock (of fossilized freshwater and marine organisms) that is pulverized. The powder grains are very pourous and have razor-like edges. DE is often used as a pesticide or to treat parasite infections. The sharp edges of DE essentially slices and dices the insect or parasite, killing it or causing it to dehydrate to death. DE is so small though that it is unable to cut larger animals or humans, however, as a fine powder, inhalation is still problematic.

Well, my wife thought that DE might be able to help treat fish disease, such as Ich. I'm just learning about DE and is capabilities, so there are several questions in my mind. I'm not a marine biologist either, so I certainly don't have complete understanding of all this encompasses.

I know DE kills without discrimination, so both good and bad organisms are killed - probably making it a bad choice for a reef tank. But would a DE treatment work in a QT? Perhaps DE could wipe out completely the thousands/millions of Ich organisms on an infected fish, killing the Ich despite its stage of its life cycle?

Has DE ever been tested on the diseases and parasites associated with marine fish?

Thoughts/experiences?

 

[Sk8r]

We used to use it in specialized filters to 'polish' the water after a major disturbance of the tank. It pretty well yanked out everything that floated, no matter how small. Occasionally some would blow-back into the tank, but the filter would grab it up again and no harm done that I ever noted, but then, nobody ever thought much about it doing damage. The kind of corals we keep now are much fussier, so I don't know what might happen. I've posed this question myself several times, as to why the filters are no longer used for chemistry-disturbing problems, like a major rile-up of the sandbed, etc, but nobody seems to have an answer. I suspect a lot of younger members have never seen one work. I last used one in, oh, mid '90's.

 

[ledford1]

I believe the DE used in filters is in slightly larger clumps, rather than a very fine powder (like Baking Soda). The clumpier form for filters (such as in pool filters) doesn't have the razor edges.

Perhaps a study is in order?

 

[Sk8r]

Interesting. I look at posts from desperate people whose tanks have gone to green soup or whose toddler has just dumped something nasty into the tank, and it seems to me that a diatom filter could probably save their situation short of losing all their corals and fish: yank every single copepod out of the water, too, and stripmine the watercolumn, but hey, what can it hurt when it's that bad?

 

[Ti]

DE is used in diatom filters for aquariums.
People use it to polish tanks down to 1 micron.
I've never heard of it killing

 

[Sk8r]

So they're still making the equipment. What's the modern name for it? We used to call it a 'diatom filter.' Is it now a DE filter?

 

[Ti]

still called a diatom filter.
google vortex diatom filter

 

[Sk8r]

Ah! Thank you, Ti!

 

[hahnmeister]

I have two diatom filters that I have used to polish water in my reefs (I used to breed african cichlids and they can cloud up water pretty fast). one is the Diatomagic hang-in-tank filter, the other is a Vortex. I find the Diatomagic easier to use for quick cleanup.

This might interest you guys...

Diatom filters turn on like this: You loop the output into the intake for a few seconds or so when you first start them up. The DE might pass through the 1micron membrane a few times, but as larger diatoms clump on and 'clog' this film, the smaller ones soon clear up as well. Then you open up the output and inputs of the filter only after the water recirculates clear and the DE has deposited itself on the membrane of the filter.

IME, I can clear a tank of an algae bloom, a bacteria bloom, anemone 'nuke' etc, in a matter of minutes. I love 'em!

The danger with using DE is that it is harmful to breath in, and likewise if a fish should get it in their gills. Dont know about corals, but its best to avoid it. Luckily, when you prime one of these filters it shouldnt be an issue.

 

[Sk8r]

Glad to know it...our lfs used to keep one as a courtesy for its best customers: if you had a rbp (really big problem) you kited down there and borrowed it. Eventually I got my own, and, silly me, sold it with my tank during the move. They're futzy and can produce a real mess, for sure, if you make a mistake, but they've saved me a couple of times: the Great Search after the Eel was one (stupidest purchase I ever made)---the sand bed kicked up, and all sorts of nastiness that could have made a real mess, cleaned up in a hurry.

 

[ledford1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7000483#post7000483 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ti
DE is used in diatom filters for aquariums.
People use it to polish tanks down to 1 micron.
I've never heard of it killing

That's because the DE used in filters is different.

When in the fine powder, it has the razor edges. Pour some on and ant hill and it will slice up every ant that comes in contact with it. Throw some near some cockroaches and take care of them. The edges cut right through the hard outer shells and will kill them - it's a mechanical action so there are no chemicals. It's often used as a duster on horses and the like to kill fleas, lice, etc. It can also be taken internally to kill internal parasites. I believe tests show that DE is more effective than popular chemical treatments such as malathion.

Inhalation, of any dust for that fact, is bad. DE does usually contain silica (silica+inhalation=silicosis), but the pesticide form is mostly amorphous silica, and it isn't any more of a problem than other dust.

There are many grades of DE. Sometimes its used in grain storage and transport. Rather than losing part of a crop to pests, pour in some DE on the crop and kill whatever may try to eat it. Should you happen to ingest DE, no problem because it can't hurt you anyway. But to the bugs, it's like walking on glass shards.

The danger with using DE is that it is harmful to breath in, and likewise if a fish should get it in their gills.

If you use the microscopic form, instead of the larger form used for filters, of DE on fish, would that be a problem? Would it irritate the gills or pass right through them without issue?

I don't really know enough to answer these questions, just enough to pose them I guess. :bum:

It would be fantastic if DE would not harm the fish and just wipe out every little parasite that might be on/in it without the use of chemicals. Might be too good to be true?

 

[ledford1]

I did find this statement:
"Deadly to any insect and completely harmless to animals, fish, fowl or food."

This phrase is on two different Web sites I scoured through from Google:
http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/health/diatearth.htm
http://www.agriorganics.com/products/insect_stop.html

However, the text is nearly identical for both Web sites, so it's either copied material or corporate PR from a parent company.

I've yet to come across anyone saying how they have used it on fish, but plenty of examples on chickens, goats, cattle, dogs, cats, and horses.

So if it actually is safe for fish, would it kill things such as Ich? Would this be a good treatment, better than chemical treatments like Copper?

I hope I'm not pounding this thing to death.

 

[hahnmeister]

It filters ich...doesnt kill it. And it is deadly if caught in fish gills.

 

[ledford1]

It filters ich...doesnt kill it.

Are you talking about DE filters or the pulverized DE that you can sprinkle on the ground or on insects?

And it is deadly if caught in fish gills.

That's what I'm afraid of - irritation to the gills or perhaps even the eyes. However, there are a few claims to be fish-safe - just sprinkle some of the fine powder into the tank. I'm not sure if that will actually work though.

 

[AM41]

this is very interesting

Has anyone ever used a diatom filter instead of a RO/DI to purify tap water.? It would eliminate the need to mess with waste water and it would be quicker

 

[hahnmeister]

It isnt fine enough to filter chamicals or anything. As for a sediment filter...it requires a priming time with fast flowing water...kinda hard to do with a water purification chamber.

 

[Sk8r]

Yep: if you've got a mess---4 year old fed your fish with Cheerios---it's a lifesaver; but it only removes particulates---including living ones you might want to keep: it gets algae blooms, substrate overturns, dead mega-anemone, cloudy water and such. It's a lifesaver when there's been a catastrope, but it depletes quickly because the filtration is so extreme: what was pristine DE powder rapidly becomes gunked. And it won't filter out tap water problems or chemistry problems.

 

[mcintosh]

And when we are talking about using it in a fish tank to remove ich, we are talking about using a DE filter and filtering the free swimming ich parasite out of the quarantine tank.

Knew someone "many years ago" that used his DE filter specifically for the quarantine tank. Didn't medicate. just ran DE until no sign of ich on the fish. You would want to then run a normal quarantine cycle of 6 weeks or so. Anytime any "nasty" showed up instead of grabbing for copper grab the DE filter with associated DE powder and you are set.

 

[mcintosh]

And when we are talking about using it in a fish tank to remove ich, we are talking about using a DE filter and filtering the free swimming ich parasite out of the quarantine tank.

Knew someone "many years ago" that used his DE filter specifically for the quarantine tank. Didn't medicate. just ran DE until no sign of ich on the fish. You would want to then run a normal quarantine cycle of 6 weeks or so. Anytime any "nasty" showed up instead of grabbing for copper grab the DE filter with associated DE powder and you are set. :smokin:

 

[Ewan]

I still have a system 1 diatomaceous earth filter that I've been using since the 80's. It's mostly used to help people that I know clean up their disgusting fish tanks (we all know too many people with disgusting fish tanks). Since I stopped keeping african cichlids 5 years ago, I don't really use it on my tanks.

I recently helped someone clean their reef after they had a phosban mess. The whole tank was rusty brown, and you couldn't see an inch inside. After 6 hours with the Diatom filter, it was clean-as-a-whistle. It makes for a good disaster recovery tool. With the system 1 filter, I never get any DE in the tank. It stays right in the jar.

I've been using the stuff available at nurseries for many, many years. It does the exact same thing as the expensive DE sold specifically for the filters.

jm$.02

-E