electricity savy people - Can a "Power-Save" unit really reduce electricity costs?

rishma

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electricity savy people - Can a "Power-Save" unit really reduce electricity costs?

http://www.power-save.com/

I apologize if this question has been asked before.

Are these units legit? Any reefers using them? A friend of mine has had one for a billing cycle at his buisness and saw a 10% decrease in his bill. He is so excited that he wants to be a distributor (his electric bill is pretty high so 10% is real $). This is not proof, but enough to peak my interest.

There are other units that make similar claims, but this is the one I am familiar with. The explanations provided by the manufacturers of these products are generally cryptic (and infomercial-like) which leads me to be skeptical.

However, I guess it is possible that the general public's lack of knowledge (myself included) in this area leads them to oversimplify. I am not a total dummy, but IEEE is not my area. Without too much abuse (please), someone knowledgeable (BeanAnimal!!) should correct me if the following is wrong.

My basic understanding is as follows: These units are just fancy capacitors that provide power factor correction so that your total power factor for your house approaches 1 and therefore your current draw is minimized. In a nutshell, you want your total power factor = 1 to draw the least amount of current and have the lowest electricity bill. A little EE I remember: Power factor = cosine difference between load phase angle and voltage phase angle.

Resistive loads are in-phase with the voltage so they already have a partial power factor = 1 (phase angle between resistive current and voltage = 0 degrees). An aquarium heater is a resistive load.

Inductive loads are out of phase with the voltage by a quarter cycle (-90 degrees) so the partial power factor = 0. Aquarium pumps are inductive loads.

Capacitive loads are out of phase by a quarter cycle in the opposite direction (+90 degrees) so the partial power factor = 0. I think these Power-Save units are capacitive loads as are rechargeable batteries.

As far as I can tell, these Power-Save type units are just capacitors (capacitive loads). Somehow they make the capacitive load magnitude match the instantaneous induction load magnitude from your house. The result is that the power save capacitor load (+90) is equal and opposite the inductive load (-90). By balancing these loads their sum = 0 degrees and your power factor = 1.

I guess these capacitors act like a temporary energy storage then feeds energy out to the house.

These companies claim to save you “up to 25%”. It seems to me that if I knew my houses power factor I could calculate my potential savings. Is there any way to easily measure your power factor? Do I have any of this stuff right??

sorry for the long post.
 
Thats really cool... I wonder if it really works... the price isent THAT bad really I was expecting atleast $1000.

Someone buy it and let us know if it works :D
 
i would think that it would work if you were charged a power factor penalty. but as im unaware of residences haveing power factor penalties im usure how it would save money for any one other than a commercial business. and if you where a comercial business, from what i understand, you would install capacitors to correct the power factor, if you had large inductive loads.

do some googling of power factor penalty and you will find the equations and stuff used by the power companies to figure their losses.


i should add "SCAM"
 
I think if you increase the power factor, your current draw goes down. Less current = less watts = less money.

i dont know what a typical power factor is for a house so it is hard me to tell if you would see a significant reduction in kw's used.
 
your missing the point rishma. its based kilovars (sp). you are not billed for kilovars. you are billed for kilowatts.

again its a SCAM

do as i suggested and google "power factor penalty" and it will all become clear.
 
It is pretty much a scam based on real science.

Yes it is a PF correction box. Poor PF can cause you to be billed for more than you really use. The problem is that correcting power factor is not as easy as tossing a capacitor on the wall. If you look up the patent for the device you will see it is a switched capacitor bank that uses manual trial and error to derive the "correct" power factor. In other words the PF changes every time you turn an inductive load on and off...

Large industrial complexes use similar devices, but they also have a pretty steady PF to correct. Your home on the other hand does not suffer from that much of a power factor non unity and furthermore it fluctuates depending on what you have turned on.

Save your money and learn to turn off lights when you leave the room.

Bean
 
Lets also add in the fact that most residential customers are billed by kWh (no reactive component is measured) and thus not really penalized by PF.

Lets also add the fact that MOST modern inductive devices have some sort of PF correction built in.

Lets also add the fact that YOU pay for the non linearity of the PF loss between YOU and the TRANSFORMER because the power company undersizes the neutral. There is nothing you can do about it.

And back to the top... if you manually switch in PF correction (assuming you are being billed for real and reactive power) then when those devicves are turned off, the PF correction will overcompensate and be just as bad in the other direction. Contrary to popular belief, you are not going to get your meter to run backwards :)
 
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It wont decrease any Canadian/US residential hydro bill.

We aren't charged for a non 1 power factor. We get charged pure kW only, not kVar.
 
Why not invest your money into buying some solar panels or even a small wind turbine? You may not see your money back in energy savings quickly, but with constantly rising energy bills it could happen sooner than you think.
 
Don't be so sure about solar... that is another whole topic. Most "solar" setups will never pay for themselves. As panel efficiency rises, that may soon change. Wind turbines... not a chance. On the other hand if you feel eco guilty then spend your money :)
 
Icefire is mostly correct.. though some of the newer digital meters do track and CAN bill for real and reactive power. Many utilities have lobbied to bill residential customers in VA instead of W, but they keep getting denied.

Bean
 
thanks everyone.

douggiestyle - you were right, i missed the point the first time. in fact, i somehow missed the "google power factor penalty" comment entirely the first time.


I'll have fun telling my friend arguing with my friend about how he really isnt saving money.....
 
To do power factor correction you need to correct the Load not the building. In industry they correct for the loads first, then the building. The reason a lot of industry is switching to fluorescent lighting is because it acts capacitve. The lights help correct the PF from the motors. If you run electronic MH ballasts they have a PF correction circuit and EMI filter built in (at least the good ones).

If you have an older electric meter you may actually end up paying more for a corrected PF. The old meters could not measure the PF or phase shift between the voltage and current. With these meters if you could shift your PF to 180 degrees it would not measure anything. The newer meters now can measure the phase shift and I do beleave report it every time they read your meter. They replaced all the meters in my area a few years ago. Now they just drive down the street to read the meters, its all RF.
 
Yep, every house in my area has a Digital meter now.
Nice of them huh, guess I should take off that huge honken inductor on the mains, JK LOL.
 
I have one of those units, (different brand), and per my little test of timing the electric meter, I saved one second for a full revolution with that device plugged into the circuit I use for my aquarium equipment.

That is one full second slower to use the same electricity.

I guess i would have to figure out how quickly the meter spins, how many times per day, per month, and do some math to see the overall impact, but on the face value, it seems likeit may actully work.

My question is, if this does work, however it works, why is this device not plugged into the iso grid and reduce demand overall for the entire region??

So, somewhere, there must not be the efficiency savings, but rather a correction to how the meter or electric company is billing for electricity used.

I guess it makes sense that per my example above about the elect company not installing this at thier side to save electricity overall, is that there is not really a savings of electricity being used, but rather how it is billed, and it would be counter indicative for the electric company to want to correct or change teh way they bill us each month.

Bill
 
It is not "plugged in" to every house because the "overall demand" is a rather complex thing. An in depth study of Real and Reactive power is needed to even broach this subject. As mentioned most modern devices have PF correction built in. Also, as mentioned, the utility runs an under sized neutral to each house... this skews the PF in the other direction (you pay for the loss between the transformer and your load) but that is also another complex story.

Electric billing is a very complex animal when it comes down to the actual load. Wasted energy is not what it appears to be at first glance. Power generation and the grid operation are hard to wrap ones head around.

Once you get it all figured out, then the theory books by Einstein books will make much more sense too!

Good old imaginary power...
 
it appears to do similar to the effect of those small round resistors that would be placed in a bulb socket to save energy. basically just reducing the amount of lumens the bulb put out. how many engineers does it take to put in a lower wattage bulb...
 
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