Extra Saturated Kalk?

Sport507

~Just a Farm Boy~
I'm wanting to start using extra saturated kalk in my ATO using 3 teaspoons per gallon.

How much white vinegar do I need to add per gallon?
 

Sport507

~Just a Farm Boy~
Thanks Jon for the quick answer.

I when through above thread again and found it. I though that’s what its was but needed to be sure. Being presumptuous in this hobby can be costly.
 
I assume you realize that using 3 teaspoons of kalk with 45 mls of vinegar will increase your alk and calcium output by about 1/3 vs 2 teaspons of kalk in 1 gallon with no vinegar? ;)

The vinegar will also act as a carbon source and increase bacteria growth as well.
 

m2434

New member
The vinegar will also act as a carbon source and increase bacteria growth as well.

Yeah, don't start anywhere near a full dose. Personally, I'd follow this, but multiply the vodka amounts by 8, as vinager is 1/8 the potency

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

Also, make sure you have a good skimmer and good O2 levels 24x7. Topping off the kalk with2-part may be safer. I actually still need to do both, but I want to dose a carbon source, so, that works for me...
 

Sport507

~Just a Farm Boy~
I assume you realize that using 3 teaspoons of kalk with 45 mls of vinegar will increase your alk and calcium output by about 1/3 vs 2 teaspons of kalk in 1 gallon with no vinegar? ;)

The vinegar will also act as a carbon source and increase bacteria growth as well.

About 1/3 is what I'm looking for. Please define bacteria growth you must be talking about the bacterium that works on nitrates correct? Also I do run a fuge it that an issue?

Thanks Cliff, much appreciated.
 
You're welcome. ;)

I use 3 teaspoons of kalk per 45 ml. vinegar myself without problems.

The vinegar will increase the growth rate of most bacteria.

Usually it is recommended to start out with 15 mls of vinegar a see how that goes for a while. If no bacterial blooms or masses develop, then jump up to 30 mls of vinegar. If no problems jump up to 45 mls. AT least this is the way I did it without any problems. ;)

Randy has dosed more vinegar than this without problems up to about 2 mls of vinegar per gallon of tank water when he saw problems.
 

Sport507

~Just a Farm Boy~
You're welcome. ;)

I use 3 teaspoons of kalk per 45 ml. vinegar myself without problems.

The vinegar will increase the growth rate of most bacteria.

Usually it is recommended to start out with 15 mls of vinegar a see how that goes for a while. If no bacterial blooms or masses develop, then jump up to 30 mls of vinegar. If no problems jump up to 45 mls. AT least this is the way I did it without any problems. ;)

Randy has dosed more vinegar than this without problems up to about 2 mls of vinegar per gallon of tank water when he saw problems.

Dang it in my next ATO jug (I'm do to change out tomorrow) should I dump it and start with less vinegar? It's a 4 gal. ATO and it takes about 5 days to deplete it.

Thanks again Cliff
 

Sport507

~Just a Farm Boy~
To be on the safe side, you would want to start with less. Your choice. ;)

I went with the full amount and will keep a close watch on things. If I would have a bloom of some kind I have the equipment to take care of it in short order.

Thanks again Cliff for time spent helping on RC.
 

tmz

ReefKeeping Mag staff
Premium Member
First of all for the sake of precision, per Bingman 48 ml will get 2.72 tsps to dissolve,a 36% increase. More vinegar than that will not increase the amount of kalk that can dissolve. The rest will not. It's stiff dose of organic carbon to start with but might be ok. . The bacteria may cause a bloom depleting oxygen or create stringy material in the tank or deplete nutrient levels too quickly for corals to adjust well. It's best to start with less and work up over a month or so, and observe over timeime. The extra organics from the acetic acid( vinegar) are also concern. Heavy skimming and granulated activated carbon can help with that.
 

Chyendra

New member
If you've never dosed vodka, vinegar or another organic carbon source beaware of how your corals will respond.

When I started adding vinegar to my kalk solution, after about a month I realized my corals we begining to pale out from too low of nutrients. It's been about a month since I stopped adding vinegar and my colors are starting to come back finally.
 

Sport507

~Just a Farm Boy~
First of all for the sake of precision, per Bingman 48 ml will get 2.72 tsps to dissolve,a 36% increase. More vinegar than that will not increase the amount of kalk that can dissolve. The rest will not. It's stiff dose of organic carbon to start with but might be ok. . The bacteria may cause a bloom depleting oxygen or create stringy material in the tank or deplete nutrient levels too quickly for corals to adjust well. It's best to start with less and work up over a month or so, and observe over timeime. The extra organics from the acetic acid( vinegar) are also concern. Heavy skimming and granulated activated carbon can help with that.

I went with the full amount and will keep a close watch on things. If I would have a bloom of some kind I have the equipment to take care of it in short order.

If I am making a huge mistake per: Randy-Holmes Farley. Please tell me now before I crash my tank.
 

tmz

ReefKeeping Mag staff
Premium Member
I don't know if it will crash your tank, alot of it depends on your tank's nutrient levels and other variables. Probably not;but Bingman and Sprung and Delbeek recommend starting with about 12ml vinegar per gallon of top off with a 9% increase in kalk saturation andworking up over a few weeks if needed. I'm a cautious sort so I move things like that up or down in small increments. I've been dosing vodka and vinegar for almost 3 yrs without troubles but others report issues. Going slow helps.
If you need more alk or calcium in the meantime you can always add some calcium chloride and baking soda to the sumpto supplement what you get from kalk.
 

Sport507

~Just a Farm Boy~
Tom,

I'm sorry I was overly blunt. I had a very bad day at work when I made that post and should think before I type sometimes.

It's just when you do the research and feel comfortable with something then there is conflicting responses that puts that ? mark right back in your mind.

Thanks for helping us all.

Respects always.
 

tmz

ReefKeeping Mag staff
Premium Member
Sport, no problem. I don't think responses are conflicting 45ml for 3 tsps is a decent rounding of 48ml for 2.76 tsps. That's not the point though.

Two things are going to happen when vinegar is added to kalk top off:

1st the amount of calcium hydroxide that will remain in solution will increase by 36 % when 48ml of vinegar is added per gallon. It won't go higher than that no matter how much vinegar is added. It will go up proportionately to the amount of vinegar added up to that point..So, for example ,12 ml p[er gallon will get 2.18 tsps to dissolve, a 9% increase.

The second thing is the concern I have. Most of the writings on organic carbon dosing emphasize starting low and working up to avoid bacterial blooms, organic carbon buildup and other pitfalls.
If your 90 gallon tank takes ,say a gallon of top off per day,you are adding 45ml of vinegar per day or around .5 ml of vinegar per gallon off the bat. I dose the equivalent of .45ml per gallon (in a vodka vinegar mix) and have for almost 3 yrs. If I go higher it works less well for me in terms of bacterial strands and coral response. I started at about a tenth of my current dose and amped up slowly, doubling it weekly. it may also take a few weeks to months for the heterotrophic bacteria that consume the organics,phosphate and nitrate to get into full swing. I dose directly and get adequate alk and calcium from kalk without adding it to the top off.
I never heard Randy recommend a start at 45ml per gallon in top off or .5 ml per gallon of tank volume
That's just a rounding of the maximum beyond which the vinegar won't do anything more for increase calcium hydroxide saturation.

Good luck.
 
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