Flashing on Move from Copper to No Copper

Dr Colliebreath

New member
I put a flame angel in quarantine with two other fish (yln and falcula butterflyfish). I treated with PraziPro and then started Cupramine (low dose/.3 ppm) a few days later. I administered 2 doses of PraziPro.

After 2 weeks in the Cupramine, the flame stopped eating and became lethargic, so I quickly set up another QT with the same water parameters except for no Cupramine and transferred the flame into it. Immediately on transfer, the flame flashed its face off the heater 3-4 times. It hasn't flashed in the 4 weeks since that time. The flame has appeared healthy at all times since and is eating well.

I have seen no signs of flukes or parasites on the flame or the other fish. The two butterflies went into my DT about 2 weeks ago and are doing fine.

Has anyone observed something like this flashing on transferring a fish from copper to a tank with no copper? Do you think it was just that the flame's skin was irritated by the copper? I was tempted to try one more PraziPro treatment before moving the flame to the DT later today but don't really think it would be useful.
 

MrTuskfish

Team RC
Flame Angels are possibly the most copper-sensitive fish in the hobby and, IMO, its very possible that the copper caused the flashing. I killed one several years ago, I assume it was the copper. Cupramine was only at about .25. I wouldn't move this fish (obviously seriously stressed recently) until he starts eating well, and acts normally. Two weeks of Cupramine is not long enough to prevent parasites, so you have to decide how to proceed. You may just have to watch him closely for a while or use another parasite treatment. Maybe a good time to try Quinine Sulfate; but nothing kills as many parasites as copper. Maybe hypo or tank-transfer to prevent ich. A tough call. BTW, PP shouldn't be used at the same time as copper; according to the mfg of PP, it reduces the effectiveness of the PP. Oh yeah, how long were the butterflies in QT and how long and at what level, of Cupramine?
 

Dr Colliebreath

New member
The butterflies were in quarantine for a total of 7 weeks, and Cupramine was in the QT for 4 of those weeks at a dose of .3.

I didn't realize the copper reduced the effectiveness of PraziPro, thanks.

I have had the flame for about 7 weeks (in a quarantine tank the entire time). It has been almost 4 weeks since I removed it from the Cupramine. It ate well before I added the Cupramine and for most of the time it was in the Cupramine. I gave it only a day when it started acting lethargic and then moved it out of the Cupramine quickly as I know they are sensitive to copper. Within a day of coming out of the Cuupramine, it resumed eating well and acting fine. There have been no other signs any parasites or any other problems.
 

Dr Colliebreath

New member
Sorry, double post.



The butterflies were in quarantine for a total of 7 weeks, and Cupramine was in the QT for 4 of those weeks at a dose of .3.

I didn't realize the copper reduced the effectiveness of PraziPro, thanks.

I have had the flame for about 7 weeks (in a quarantine tank the entire time). It has been almost 4 weeks since I removed it from the Cupramine. It ate well before I added the Cupramine and for most of the time it was in the Cupramine. I gave it only a day when it started acting lethargic and then moved it out of the Cupramine quickly as I know they are sensitive to copper. Within a day of coming out of the Cuupramine, it resumed eating well and acting fine. There have been no other signs any parasites or any other problems.
 

MrTuskfish

Team RC
Weird, no Packer game until tonight, so I'll visit RC.

Sounds like you're doing everything about the same way I would---which may not be worth the price of a damsel. Cupramine at .3 is borderline, but I think its almost always effective at that level. I have a pair of African Flamebacks, close relatives of Flames, that developed velvet in QT and Cupramine at about .3 did the job. Its hard to read test kits with any more precision anyhow. As the Butterflies seem fine, and the Flame did receive a decent dosing of copper, I think you'll be OK. But, I'd still nurse him back to health in your QT; avoiding the competition and mayhem of a new tank. I really think that the skin irritation is a copper reaction, it sounds typical. Stresscoat may help this a lot, its a great product for anything that bothers the slimecoat.( I once rubbed it on a Harlequin Tusk that jumped out and was being held to the floor by my Springer Spaniel. The HT is still doing great.) You have good fish sense, so just wait long enough to be sure the flashing isn't parasite related and the Flame is tough enough to survive your DT. Contrary to a lot of CW, I think a QT is much less stressful than any DT. Keep us posted!
 

sandwi54

New member
when i got my flame angel, i did not know that it was very sensitive to copper, so i did what i do to every new fish and applied both cupramine and prazipro. at the end of the treatment, he survived but came down with a severe case of HLLE. i would say the flashing could be just normal from skin irritation.

my flame never completely recovered from HLLE. the colors did restore but some of the lesions never fully healed. i still love him though! he's a fat boy and the brightest colored fish in my tank.

given that your flame has already been in QT for 7 weeks and went through 2 weeks of cupramine, i'd say it's safe to put him in the DT if you do not see ANY signs of ich or velvet (no fast breathing at all and no flashing ever since the initial one).
 

Dr Colliebreath

New member
Its hard to read test kits with any more precision anyhow.

My feelings exactly on my Seachem copper test kit. We are fortunate that Cupramine seems so stable in solution as that takes some of the risk off relying on the test kit. I have always had test results that were consistent with the dosing instructions, but I would hate to have to rely on the test if I didn't have a pretty good idea of the concentration in the water.
 

Dr Colliebreath

New member
when i got my flame angel, i did not know that it was very sensitive to copper, so i did what i do to every new fish and applied both cupramine and prazipro.

Me too. I knew that flames were quite sensitive to copper but not how sensitive. There are sources that say .15 ppm is the limit and I was above that when I ran across them. I had the flame in the QT with butterflies, which can be sensitive to copper, and was thinking that if the butterflies were ok, the flame would be ok also. Not necessarily so.

Part of the reason I move it so fast was knowing how sensitive they are to copper and the great condition the fish was in when I obtained it.
 

sandwi54

New member
Part of the reason I move it so fast was knowing how sensitive they are to copper and the great condition the fish was in when I obtained it.

I had to do the same too! Instead of the typical 3 week treatment that i usually did, i had to do only 2 because of the flame.
 

Dr Colliebreath

New member
Thanks to both of you for the input. The flame is in the DT now. The sunrise dottyback took some shots at the flame and the saddleback butterfly is bothering it some, but I think the flame will stand up to both as it settles in as it turned on the dottyback a couple of times. The rest of the fish are ignoring the flame.
 
Top