FYI - GE Silicone II - TOXIC

Agreed ....the thread title would be more accurate that way

Still puzzled at what could have nuked my tank that fast. Water params are still perfect. Really don't want to cut out the background and all silicone to start over. Going to buy a test fish tonight and see what happens....
 
I thought cichlids were much more sensitive to water issues than reef fish?

Kind of stupid question I'm sure, but you mentioned a large water change, did you use any anti-chlorine/chloramine chemicals on the water? Or some sort of filtration to remove it?
 
I would be thinking of chloramine (especially in the summer when water districts are fighting algae blooms) , pH shock, or something (soap residue?) coming from one of the containers you used to transfer water.
Are these african or south american chiclids that we are talking about?
Where were the fish while you were putting in the backing.
For example, if these are south american and large they could have gotten a small holding tank pretty acidic in a few days. Tap water is usually at least neutral and often above pH 8. The south americans could easily have tolerated pH 5 in the holding tank and if moved to a new pH 8.5 freshly filled tank, it could be pH shock.

How long has it been since you have had the tank full of water?
I agree a test fish is the appropriate next step.
 
Really? No one thinks a 24 hour power outage might have something to do with fish dying and coral not. Perhaps the silicone was a coincidence? Perhaps the lack of water movement combined with still curing silicone? Maybe just the 24 hours without power by itself. Power loss has certainly been the demise of more than a few fish.
 
The first thing I thought when I read the history was the silicone was still drying because the back ground was preventing good air exchange.

Did you still smell anything before you added water back?

Did you keep the tank wet while doing this and then just add the fish back or did you drain it 100%, dry it, fill it, drain it, fill it again?

Could your filters be the issue? Did you just leave them as is for the 3 days or did they continue to filter?

Finally regardless of what type of silicone you used it could be just as toxic as Nematode was suggesting.
 
Really? No one thinks a 24 hour power outage might have something to do with fish dying and coral not. Perhaps the silicone was a coincidence? Perhaps the lack of water movement combined with still curing silicone? Maybe just the 24 hours without power by itself. Power loss has certainly been the demise of more than a few fish.
No, I am pretty sure the OP did not experience a power outage. He was making the point that corals and fish behave differently to different situations.

Todd
 
Correct Todd. Did not have a power outage on this tank.

These were African cichlids being moved from their old 75gallon tank to a new 185g. Filters were only off for 30mins. Prime was used to de-chlorinate and this is what I always use during water changes. I believe this would also remove any ammonia being produced by the silicone cure as well.

When the background/silicone was curing there was a slight smell but not much since Silicone II does not use acetic acid curing. The tank was filled after 3 days curing, then drained and filled again before adding fish.

Silicone II DOES have mold inhibitor / Bio Seal in it. The problem is that it's not specifically called out on the label.

Just found a hardware store that had three tubes of GE Silicone I in Black left and I bought them. As much as I hate to redo the background/drain tank again I know I'll sleep better if I do.

FYI...also noticed on the Silicone I package its states "is compliant for incidental food contact". Silicone II does not state this.
 
I've heard of many others on the freshwater forums having issues with II as well. I've used I with absolutely no issues, so it's best to stick with what we know works.
 
Some people say this stuff is ok to use but I would steer clear!
GE Silicone, whether I or II, is not toxic by default, they are just different curing mechanisms. You likely bought Silicone II with fungicidal additives, almost all consumer versions of GE Silicone II have them. Silicone I may or may not have them.

That said, don't you research? People have warned not to use Silicone II for at least three decades now...

Jeff
 
I did lots research but as you can see from reading this post...there is conflicting info out there. Some peple say its fine, others have shared my fate.

That is the real reason why I posted this. So other will clearly see that Silicone II is NOT SAFE to use in aquariums.
 
i did lots research but as you can see from reading this post...there is conflicting info out there. Some peple say its fine, others have shared my fate.

That is the real reason why i posted this. So other will clearly see that silicone ii is not always safe to use in aquariums.

ftfy
 
Silicone 1 window door attic basement is what I used on my foam wall. No issues yet...
Crosses fingers
Corey
 
I am happy to say that I believe whatever (probably the methanol, as I can't test for it) killed a few snails seems to have passed.
 
Remember some GE I silicones do have mold inhibitors also, so it is not just a GE II risky GE I is not.

All the GE silicones (except for their specialized products for aquariums) have the warning "Not for use below the waterline, where FDA compliant is necessary, or aquariums". Many say the silicones are identical to the specialized products and this is all about liability. But ... certainly GE won't say this.

I think the basic issues are three fold
1) GE II (and more general neutral cure silicones) bind much better to non-glass surfaces so for people with DIY projects that use non-glass materials such as putting glass into an epoxy sealed wood tank (like me) or putting in plexiglass baffles, GE II provides for better strength.

2) Access to large tubes of aquarium grade acetic acid cure silicones locally is poor especially if one is looking for non-clear silicones (white or black). Even online finding large tubes of black sealant isn't easy.

3) I am not aware of an aquarium grade neutral cure silicone though there may be an FDA food grade neutral out there. If people have online sources for these it would be great to post them.
I certainly have no objection to using a product approved for aquariums (assuming the cost difference isn't huge), but finding it is the difficulty.


One last point. One option if you need a neutral cure silicone and are concerned would be to cover the layer of neutral with a layer of an aquarium grade acetic cured. Silicone binds to silicone pretty well when its freshly cured and this should act as a barrier to any potential long term toxic neutral silicone components.
 
Just wanted to add my experience to this thread so future readers/googlers can be well informed.

I added 3 baffles to my 20g sump using 1/2 tube GE Silicone II Clear. It was NOT the kitchen and bath and had no mention of mildew inhibitor. I let it cure for a week so there was no smell and it was cured solid. I put the sump into operation at 9pm on a Saturday night. By 3pm Sunday my potters angel was swimming around like it was on drugs at the top of the water. Then it just lay on the bottom breathing. My two clowns also moved to a corner on the bottom and stayed there. All tests came up normal. No ammonia, nitrates or nitrites. PH 8.2. My damsel was te only fish that appeared ok. I started running carbon and a poly filter. I did a 50% WC at 7pm amd another 50% at midnight. By Monday night my potters and damsel died. One of my clowns was acting like it was on drugs and then lay on the bottom breathing but not swimming. I did a 30% WC Monday night. Tuesday night a 20% WC. Both my clowns are still laying on the bottom barely swimming. One ate some mysis today for the first time in 3 days.

The behavior, symptoms and death of my fish is too similar to the OP to be coincidence. The rapid decline with otherwise perfect water points conclusively to the GE silicone. I have since learned from a Dow rep that the silicone manufactures can change the chemicals based on supply so each batch could be different.

I would never trust GE silicone II with so much $$ in live stock. Will it always kill your fish? No. Will it kill your fish more frequently than aquarium safe silicone? Absolutely.

The bottle says not aquarium safe. This is not because the bond won't hold up under pressure but because the chemical makeup can poison your inhabitants.

Someone previously said not to spread misinformation because GE II worked for them. This is not misinformation. GE II fully cured can poison a tank and should be avoided unless you want to RISK nuking the tank.
 
Kids drown in 1 inch of water??? What is wrong with you. How is that relevant or even socially appropriate to say.

I'm sure this was intended as an analogy to illustrate how even 'non-toxic' elements such as water can be toxic in the right circumstances. Perhaps it would have been more socially appropriate to say drinking enough water in a given period of elapsed time could prove lethal to a human.

FWIW, all the cichlid sites I've been a part of say to use GE I; so that's what I've always done without issue. Even on my reef tank...put a sump into use after about 24 hours or less. Same with my cichlid tanks. No issues for me.
 
Ok, this conversation or debate, has been rehashed it seems, almost, since the beginning of time. It is never resolved, and the sound sensible advice, that has been given, is generally ignored, or even further debated.

Is Silicone II toxic? Largely it is an unknown. Most likely, once cured, it is not anymore toxic than any other silicone.

It is however, a neutral cure or solvent based product. It releases an ammonia odor. It is very easy to spot this, with similar products, using a simple sniff test.

Silicone I, on the other hand, is an acetoxy cure product. It releases an acetic acid odor (vinegar.) It is very easy to spot this, with similar products, using a simple sniff test.

Since the beginning of time, the recommendation (regardless of the debates, and the "oh it will be fines",) for silicone in an aquarium application has been:

100% Silicone (most are)
Acetoxy Cure (some are some aren't)
FDA Approved for food contact

Why the FDA approval? Because it eliminates the possibility, (either real or imagined, depending on the particular product,) that the silicone will cause a problem in the tank. It is not that there are no products out there, that are NOT FDA approved, that are safe. It simply takes the guess work out of it. In this manner, the "mass kill-off" will not be related to the silicone, in any way other than insufficient cure time. Because any way you slice it, if it is not FULLY cured, it will kill your tank FDA approved or not. Allowing a week or more cure time eliminates even this variable.

Did the silicone kill off this particular tank? It is an unknown, could it have? Yes, considering the application, it is quite possible that it did not cure--especially in the center of the background. Or it could have been, since the tank should have been taken down, that the shock, when restarted, took out the tank. Or maybe, Silicone II is just toxic from the word go cured or not. But anecdotal information exists supporting BOTH sides of the question, so again it is an unknown.

Also,the labels on both GE I AND II, say not for use in aquariums, however, IIRC, the GE I label (or product information) now shows FDA approval. Be that as it may, the recommendation remains unchanged.

100% Silicone
Acetoxy Cure
FDA Approved ......

This eliminates the questions, and then there is only the question of using the right product for the application. No longer is it needed to ask "is this silicone safe in my tank" and variations thereof. Read the LABEL. Read the product information, you have to look for it sometimes. The MSDS does not tell you what you need to know. The tank builders will not tell you, the tank manufacturers will not tell you. Though, I do have inside information on that, and have posted it many many times. Sometimes the silicone manufacturer will tell you, sometimes they will not. However, if you take the basic advice, there is not going to be any questions, other than is Product A strong enough for the application, or would Product B, considering the application, be a better choice.
 
Ok, this conversation or debate, has been rehashed it seems, almost, since the beginning of time. It is never resolved, and the sound sensible advice, that has been given, is generally ignored, or even further debated.

Is Silicone II toxic? Largely it is an unknown. Most likely, once cured, it is not anymore toxic than any other silicone.

It is however, a neutral cure or solvent based product. It releases an ammonia odor. It is very easy to spot this, with similar products, using a simple sniff test.
It's not just ammonia that gets released, there are other nasties as well.

I can't think of a case that I've personally seen or heard of in which the problem was not "user error."
People take a product that is not designed for the application at hand (meaning pretty much all directions are useless) then follow the useless instructions, then blame the product when problems arise. Simply can't do this and expect good results..

I don't know how many times I've said it, but a week at an absolute minimum for cure time - preferably 2 weeks+ for neutral cure silicones. To do otherwise is risking more and more problems, the user does so at their own risk.. And this isn't just for GEII but *all* neutral cure silicones. Globbing it on thicker and thicker and/or in unexposed areas increases these cure times.

Not trying to sound harsh..just the reality of it.. :)

James
 
Back
Top