Ground probes
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Tadashi
Premium Member
Many of the devices we place in the aquarium leak voltage. I read in another post that you will not feel any shock until it is above 24 volts. Heater are the biggest culprit. I would use one just in case to prevent you or your livestock from getting shocked. $14 is a small price to pay.
I have heard someone making one out of a titanium bike spoke and old power cord but since you can get one for about $14 it may be cheaper just to buy it (unless you have those laying around your house).
As for installation - just plug into wall, if you do not have the three prong plug use the attachment and screw in the grounding screw in the wall socket plate, then place probe in tank (I put it in my skimmer sump to hide it from view).
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"Honey, put the bleach down and step away from the reef tank. I promise we will spend more quality time together."
My Bonsai-reef site
I have heard someone making one out of a titanium bike spoke and old power cord but since you can get one for about $14 it may be cheaper just to buy it (unless you have those laying around your house).
As for installation - just plug into wall, if you do not have the three prong plug use the attachment and screw in the grounding screw in the wall socket plate, then place probe in tank (I put it in my skimmer sump to hide it from view).
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"Honey, put the bleach down and step away from the reef tank. I promise we will spend more quality time together."
My Bonsai-reef site
I have heard mixed reviews.
But I have the same attitude as Tadashi. It can't hurt whether it is totatly necessary or not. It's a small price to pay.
But I have the same attitude as Tadashi. It can't hurt whether it is totatly necessary or not. It's a small price to pay.
Induced electrical charge in our tanks is still a debated topic. I for one subscribe to it as being a fact and that it has detrimental effects on our tank inhabitants. Voltages as high as 50 volts have been reported to be found in some tanks. NO you or I would not really feel this voltage as it is voltage with no amperage and no flow. However, many inhabitants in our tanks do indeed sense this voltage. Electrical voltages as small as those created by a living creatures nervous system is enough to be sensed by many waterbound creatures, as this is how some of them hunt. So placing them in an environment of a constant 25 volts would to say the least, increase stress greatly.
A grounding probe is the best way we have at controlling this. However, many people spend the $$ on one and plug it in and think they have solved the problem. This is just not true. Many homes do not have the third (ground) lead in their wall outlets. If there is no ground lead, simply screwing the wire to the screw in the middle of the socket covert 99% of the time will not provide any ground what so ever!!!!!!
If the home is old enough not to have three prong wall sockets, then the likelihood of the actual wall box being grounded is slim to nill. Furthermore if an old house that is not wired with grounds has a three prong plug installed into a wall outlet box, then there is no ground wire to connected to the ground circuit, thus it is just like a two prong plug, only you do not have to use an adapter to plug a three prong plug into it.
Has any of this made sense so far??
So, You either have to verify that you do indeed have a ground circuit in your house and at the wall plug in question. Or simply go and buy an 8" grounding rod and drive it into the ground (all the way save 6", no cheating and leaving it up a couple of feet) then run your grounding probe to the grounding rod.
HTHS
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Happy Reefing,
Michael
Aquaria Central
Learn from the mistakes of others, Life is too short to make them all for yourself!
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cures.
A grounding probe is the best way we have at controlling this. However, many people spend the $$ on one and plug it in and think they have solved the problem. This is just not true. Many homes do not have the third (ground) lead in their wall outlets. If there is no ground lead, simply screwing the wire to the screw in the middle of the socket covert 99% of the time will not provide any ground what so ever!!!!!!
If the home is old enough not to have three prong wall sockets, then the likelihood of the actual wall box being grounded is slim to nill. Furthermore if an old house that is not wired with grounds has a three prong plug installed into a wall outlet box, then there is no ground wire to connected to the ground circuit, thus it is just like a two prong plug, only you do not have to use an adapter to plug a three prong plug into it.
Has any of this made sense so far??
So, You either have to verify that you do indeed have a ground circuit in your house and at the wall plug in question. Or simply go and buy an 8" grounding rod and drive it into the ground (all the way save 6", no cheating and leaving it up a couple of feet) then run your grounding probe to the grounding rod.
HTHS
------------------
Happy Reefing,
Michael
Aquaria Central
Learn from the mistakes of others, Life is too short to make them all for yourself!
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cures.
myram
#347, 19 years
MLP......you have obviously not felt what 50+ volts of electricity feels like. My Rio 2500 had a crack in it's wire and was submerged in the wet/dry sump....there was 59 volts of electricity in the tank. When I went to put my hand in the tank to work on something.....whew!!! I felt it and I felt it good! I only got as far as the tip of my finger and I quickly pulled my hand out and the tip of my finger was numb. Well.....the problem fixed itself as the Rio died a couple of days later and I replaced it with a new one.
Just wanted to say.....You can feel the electricity in the tank.
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http://www.angelfire.com/me3/fishtanks
Just wanted to say.....You can feel the electricity in the tank.
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http://www.angelfire.com/me3/fishtanks
myram,
Not only have I felt 50 volts, I have felt 80,000 volts and laughed about it and I have 440volts light my fire right through rubber soled shoes, and didn't laugh about it. It all depends on the amperage. An open wire in your tank has the amperage supplied by feed to your house. However, induced voltage in a tank does not, unless you have an open wire in there. And that is not what is considered induced voltage.
Another thought on utilizing a grounding probe. The use of one can virtually render a GFCI useless.
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Happy Reefing,
Michael
Aquaria Central
Learn from the mistakes of others, Life is too short to make them all for yourself!
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cures.
Not only have I felt 50 volts, I have felt 80,000 volts and laughed about it and I have 440volts light my fire right through rubber soled shoes, and didn't laugh about it. It all depends on the amperage. An open wire in your tank has the amperage supplied by feed to your house. However, induced voltage in a tank does not, unless you have an open wire in there. And that is not what is considered induced voltage.
Another thought on utilizing a grounding probe. The use of one can virtually render a GFCI useless.
------------------
Happy Reefing,
Michael
Aquaria Central
Learn from the mistakes of others, Life is too short to make them all for yourself!
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cures.
I'm still reading up before I make an order at marine depot later this week. A visitor of this board was kind enough to mail me the following links:
http://nucalf.physics.fsu.edu/pfohl/Fish/Marine/General/grounding
http://209.185.240.250:80/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=&lah=ee7250bfeed01cd82dedf917f17bf2e0&lat=952924524&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2ereefs%2eorg%2fubb%2fForum1%2fHTML%2f003094%2ehtml
http://nucalf.physics.fsu.edu/pfohl/Fish/Marine/General/grounding
http://209.185.240.250:80/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=&lah=ee7250bfeed01cd82dedf917f17bf2e0&lat=952924524&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2ereefs%2eorg%2fubb%2fForum1%2fHTML%2f003094%2ehtml
Hi John,
The GFCI works off the surge created in the ground side when there is a short. When you install a grounding probe it will provide an easier path to ground from your water, so if a heater breaks or (stretching it) if a lamp fixture fell into the tank the surge would flow through the probe to ground and the GFCI would not trip.
moviegeek,
Your second link doesn't work. The first link is what I am use to seeing from an electrician. They look to the obvious, and miss the obscure. I did not read the whole thing. But what I did skim on it looks only to the obvious. That being an actual leak, (like from a bare wire) of voltage into the tank. When that happens refer to my reply above to John.
However, what most electricians fail to think about is that most often the induced charge in our tanks is just that "Induced". It can come from the electromagnetic fields formed by the electric motors of PowerHeads, pumps and even heaters.
Most electricians deal with hard wires like in your house and bad wiring and overloading circuits causing most all problems. These type problems in our tanks can very quickly kill our tank inhabitants. However. EMF's create stress and hidden problems in living organisms. Just as they are finding that people that live in very close proximity to High Tension Electrical Towers have elevated health problems.
Here are a couple of things to think about:
American Society of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists have compared the electrical sensitivity of certain species of sharks to that of a voltmeter able to detect the potential between two wires connected to opposite poles of a flashlight battery, the other ends of which were separated in the ocean by a distance of two miles! By comparison to this tiny amount of electricity, the 20 volts or so measured in a tank is an enormously powerful charge. No wonder fish hide!
Also, The common dogfish, for example, finds prey by detecting its electric field, even though the prey item may be buried just beneath the sand. This does not involve a current flow, but is obviously a bio-electrical phenomenon.
This shows the sensitivity of some of the creatures that live in our WaterWorld. So anything IMHO that can be done to reduce or remove this charge in our tanks is beneficial.
Besides, A bare wire or worn insulation on a PH or Heater shoud be visible, and most would not put something like this in water, let alone their tanks anyway. A little bit of common sense always need to be employed!
------------------
Happy Reefing,
Michael
Aquaria Central
Learn from the mistakes of others, Life is too short to make them all for yourself!
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cures.
The GFCI works off the surge created in the ground side when there is a short. When you install a grounding probe it will provide an easier path to ground from your water, so if a heater breaks or (stretching it) if a lamp fixture fell into the tank the surge would flow through the probe to ground and the GFCI would not trip.
moviegeek,
Your second link doesn't work. The first link is what I am use to seeing from an electrician. They look to the obvious, and miss the obscure. I did not read the whole thing. But what I did skim on it looks only to the obvious. That being an actual leak, (like from a bare wire) of voltage into the tank. When that happens refer to my reply above to John.
However, what most electricians fail to think about is that most often the induced charge in our tanks is just that "Induced". It can come from the electromagnetic fields formed by the electric motors of PowerHeads, pumps and even heaters.
Most electricians deal with hard wires like in your house and bad wiring and overloading circuits causing most all problems. These type problems in our tanks can very quickly kill our tank inhabitants. However. EMF's create stress and hidden problems in living organisms. Just as they are finding that people that live in very close proximity to High Tension Electrical Towers have elevated health problems.
Here are a couple of things to think about:
American Society of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists have compared the electrical sensitivity of certain species of sharks to that of a voltmeter able to detect the potential between two wires connected to opposite poles of a flashlight battery, the other ends of which were separated in the ocean by a distance of two miles! By comparison to this tiny amount of electricity, the 20 volts or so measured in a tank is an enormously powerful charge. No wonder fish hide!
Also, The common dogfish, for example, finds prey by detecting its electric field, even though the prey item may be buried just beneath the sand. This does not involve a current flow, but is obviously a bio-electrical phenomenon.
This shows the sensitivity of some of the creatures that live in our WaterWorld. So anything IMHO that can be done to reduce or remove this charge in our tanks is beneficial.
Besides, A bare wire or worn insulation on a PH or Heater shoud be visible, and most would not put something like this in water, let alone their tanks anyway. A little bit of common sense always need to be employed!
------------------
Happy Reefing,
Michael
Aquaria Central
Learn from the mistakes of others, Life is too short to make them all for yourself!
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cures.
MLP,
A ground probe in no way will render a "Properly installed" GFCI useless. I also do not agree that a GFCI works off the surge created in the ground side. A surge cannot be created from ground. A GFCI trips when there is a 5 milliamp differance between the the hot & the neutral. The GFCI wants to see 120v on the hot & 120v on the neutral, if it doesn't see that it will trip. As far as your heater/lamp scenario goes, You are correct only if the heater/lamp is on an unprotected circuit, in all likelyhood your breaker/fuse should trip(assuming it's a 15a circuit) because you would have a dead short to ground. The breaker would take time to trip though(realitively speaking) and there would be no protection to a human being if he /she were touching the water. If the breaker does not trip, there would most likely be a fire. If the heater/lamp was plugged into a GFCI at the time of breakage/falling in the tank, be it with or without a ground probe it would trip. HTH
Thanks
Paul
[This message has been edited by turbo (edited 03-13-2000).]
A ground probe in no way will render a "Properly installed" GFCI useless. I also do not agree that a GFCI works off the surge created in the ground side. A surge cannot be created from ground. A GFCI trips when there is a 5 milliamp differance between the the hot & the neutral. The GFCI wants to see 120v on the hot & 120v on the neutral, if it doesn't see that it will trip. As far as your heater/lamp scenario goes, You are correct only if the heater/lamp is on an unprotected circuit, in all likelyhood your breaker/fuse should trip(assuming it's a 15a circuit) because you would have a dead short to ground. The breaker would take time to trip though(realitively speaking) and there would be no protection to a human being if he /she were touching the water. If the breaker does not trip, there would most likely be a fire. If the heater/lamp was plugged into a GFCI at the time of breakage/falling in the tank, be it with or without a ground probe it would trip. HTH
Thanks
Paul
[This message has been edited by turbo (edited 03-13-2000).]
BMW,
Q: "Why is it different to the gfi if ground is thru a "probe" rather than thru a person?"
A: There is no diff to the GFCI as long as there is a good ground provided at the box.
Q: "What happens if the ground probe is plugged into the gfi circuit?"
A: Nothing, unless you have no ground at the box for the GFCI. At that point the GFCI will then use your tank as a ground (not good BTW). If you have a good ground they will just share the same ground.
I think of a GFCI as human protection and a ground probe as tank inhbitants protection.
HTH
Thanks
Paul
Q: "Why is it different to the gfi if ground is thru a "probe" rather than thru a person?"
A: There is no diff to the GFCI as long as there is a good ground provided at the box.
Q: "What happens if the ground probe is plugged into the gfi circuit?"
A: Nothing, unless you have no ground at the box for the GFCI. At that point the GFCI will then use your tank as a ground (not good BTW). If you have a good ground they will just share the same ground.
I think of a GFCI as human protection and a ground probe as tank inhbitants protection.
HTH
Thanks
Paul
Thanks,
I asked a little tounge in cheek.
I asked an electical engineer, as well as the owner of a electical contracting firm about all this. They both told me to use a gfi circuit breaker on its own line and plug the grounding plug into it. Which I now have installed.
This was in the context of my health, not marine life.
b.
I asked a little tounge in cheek.
I asked an electical engineer, as well as the owner of a electical contracting firm about all this. They both told me to use a gfi circuit breaker on its own line and plug the grounding plug into it. Which I now have installed.
This was in the context of my health, not marine life.
b.
Here's the kicker: What do you do if your metal halide lights trip the gfci? I had to remove my gfi because I would come home and the tank would be dead. I tried changing the gfi, didn't help. Now that's it gone everything is rosy.
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Larry M
See my tanks at Northern Reef
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Larry M
See my tanks at Northern Reef
The MH fixture is grounded, yes. There is a 3-prong cord on the fixture, and the ground is attached to the socket bracket. The light was connected to a gfci receptacle, now just a standard receptacle. These 175w (and maybe other wattages) 10,000K bulbs draw a ton of current when they first start up.
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Larry M
See my tanks at Northern Reef
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Larry M
See my tanks at Northern Reef
I have 2 400's, a 250 and 3 VHO ballasts on a dedicated 20amp circuit. The circuit is protected by a 20amp GFCI breaker. That breaker has never tripped. A GFCI receptacle is usually rated for 15 amps. You may want to check the fixtures' ground connection with a meter. Also check the ground at the box that the GFCI was in. Most of the electrical problems I have seen are usually bad/no grounds or bad connections. You also may want to call Leviton, they have a good tech line/customer support. Their number is on their website - www.leviton.com. HTH
Paul
Paul
FWIW,
Both the guys I consulted said a separate line with a gfi breaker. Asked about the receptcle, cord extension with the gfi--both said separate line with the gfi breaker. I do not know enough about these things--but I know both of them and their address.
I installed a separate line (15 amp btw-no mh to suck up the amps ) and no problems so far.
I did read somewhere-not a aquarium bb-- that the gfi receptcles and extensions were more prone to trip false. Again, no expertise whatsoever. Just relying on those I know who (should)have direct knowlege of the matter.
b.
Both the guys I consulted said a separate line with a gfi breaker. Asked about the receptcle, cord extension with the gfi--both said separate line with the gfi breaker. I do not know enough about these things--but I know both of them and their address.
I installed a separate line (15 amp btw-no mh to suck up the amps
) and no problems so far.I did read somewhere-not a aquarium bb-- that the gfi receptcles and extensions were more prone to trip false. Again, no expertise whatsoever. Just relying on those I know who (should)have direct knowlege of the matter.
b.
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