grounding probe
- Thread starter christa
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dvanacker
DID I SOUNDS SMRT??
Were is the scientific proof that a grounding probe is good for the inhabitants of the tank.
IMHO it's not needed and a bad idea. Stay voltage is not good. But a ground probe is a cover up. And a bad cover up at that.
My float switches put stray voltage 114VAC into the tank. They operate a soleniod. So I have the topup on a timer that comes on for 1 minute 3 times a day.
Sure there is volts present but no amps....it's not like I could feel anything with my hands in there. Stray current is more important then voltage. Voltage with little or no current = no shock.
Voltage is kinda like the potential to shock. Higher voltage equals A higher reactivity and potential for current movement. Thats why high voltage transformers are so dangerous. How ever current is whats gonna kill ya. Current is the flow of electrons. And to flow electrons you need low resistance.
Thats why I dont understand a ground probe for aquariums. Basically you providing a low resistance ground so the stray current (if any) has a place to go. This would be good for an unsuspecting aquarists who is grounded and puts his hands in the tank but bad for tank inhabitants. Now instead of no direct path for the current to go you have have essentially closed the circuit and givent the electricity a low resistance path through the water colum. Doesnt make sense to me.
I work with DC power plants...big ones with the telephone company. I can touch a 1000amp copper bus bar bare handed (low voltage DC) and no shock what so ever. Now if I was less resistive and grounded...that would be a different story.
IMHO it's not needed and a bad idea. Stay voltage is not good. But a ground probe is a cover up. And a bad cover up at that.
My float switches put stray voltage 114VAC into the tank. They operate a soleniod. So I have the topup on a timer that comes on for 1 minute 3 times a day.
Sure there is volts present but no amps....it's not like I could feel anything with my hands in there. Stray current is more important then voltage. Voltage with little or no current = no shock.
Voltage is kinda like the potential to shock. Higher voltage equals A higher reactivity and potential for current movement. Thats why high voltage transformers are so dangerous. How ever current is whats gonna kill ya. Current is the flow of electrons. And to flow electrons you need low resistance.
Thats why I dont understand a ground probe for aquariums. Basically you providing a low resistance ground so the stray current (if any) has a place to go. This would be good for an unsuspecting aquarists who is grounded and puts his hands in the tank but bad for tank inhabitants. Now instead of no direct path for the current to go you have have essentially closed the circuit and givent the electricity a low resistance path through the water colum. Doesnt make sense to me.
I work with DC power plants...big ones with the telephone company. I can touch a 1000amp copper bus bar bare handed (low voltage DC) and no shock what so ever. Now if I was less resistive and grounded...that would be a different story.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6910097#post6910097 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by thrlride
DO NOT run the ground probe unless it is hooked to a GFCI, that is of course if you want to die.
Entirely false... please explain how this can kill you.... it is news to me.
Any thing that will provide a path to ground for electricity other then your body is there to save you... it can still trip a main breaker or a fuse...
A GFCI can save you without a grounding probe--
IMO you should still have both.
Dvan---
I see your points-- here is why I think you SHOULD use a GFCI and a grounding probe..
Here are 4 scenarios where you have something fail and expose your tank to voltage--
1. Without a probe or GFCI... you put your hands in the tank-- if your body's resistance is low enough and the path is correct---zap and you could die.
2. With a GFCI but no probe... you put your hands in the tank-- the GFCI if working right will trip immediately as you get shocked-- it should save you but you will get a shock for a few milliseconds...not ideal but it should save you.
3. With a GFCI and probe-- your GFCI should trip before your hands ever enter the tank (as soon as the fault occurs)... no shock occurs.
4. With a probe (no GFCI)-- the probe will complete the circuit as you said but it should cause the current to flow high enough that it trips your circuit breaker at your panel (or fuse)...
Whether its good for the fish is moot... if you aren't there to see your fish, your fish's health is the least of your concerns...
I see your points-- here is why I think you SHOULD use a GFCI and a grounding probe..
Here are 4 scenarios where you have something fail and expose your tank to voltage--
1. Without a probe or GFCI... you put your hands in the tank-- if your body's resistance is low enough and the path is correct---zap and you could die.
2. With a GFCI but no probe... you put your hands in the tank-- the GFCI if working right will trip immediately as you get shocked-- it should save you but you will get a shock for a few milliseconds...not ideal but it should save you.
3. With a GFCI and probe-- your GFCI should trip before your hands ever enter the tank (as soon as the fault occurs)... no shock occurs.
4. With a probe (no GFCI)-- the probe will complete the circuit as you said but it should cause the current to flow high enough that it trips your circuit breaker at your panel (or fuse)...
Whether its good for the fish is moot... if you aren't there to see your fish, your fish's health is the least of your concerns...
dvanacker
DID I SOUNDS SMRT??
I agree.....it probably is a good idea for OUR health. But the idea of a grounding probe is marketed as for the health of the tank inhabitants which I dont believe is correct.
Just look at this artical... http://saltaquarium.about.com/library/weekly/aa101602.htm
Just look at this artical... http://saltaquarium.about.com/library/weekly/aa101602.htm
dvanacker
DID I SOUNDS SMRT??
Oh and I also dont agree with people going out and measuring voltage in there tanks and thinking that a ground probe is going to solve the problem.
Sure there might be voltage but with little or no current potential (high resistance from the source) adding a ground probe isnt going to trip a GFI and will again just provide the means for electrons to flow (not many have you)
Sure there might be voltage but with little or no current potential (high resistance from the source) adding a ground probe isnt going to trip a GFI and will again just provide the means for electrons to flow (not many have you)
wet reefer
New member
My float switches put stray voltage 114VAC into the tank. They operate a soleniod. So I have the topup on a timer that comes on for 1 minute 3 times a day.
Sure there is volts present but no amps....it's not like I could feel anything with my hands in there. Stray current is more important then voltage. Voltage with little or no current = no shock
Are you nuts? The purpose of the ground probe is to give the current a path to ground which would then trip a GFI. Don't give advice if you don't know what your talking about, your going to get someone killed.
Sure there is volts present but no amps....it's not like I could feel anything with my hands in there. Stray current is more important then voltage. Voltage with little or no current = no shock
Are you nuts? The purpose of the ground probe is to give the current a path to ground which would then trip a GFI. Don't give advice if you don't know what your talking about, your going to get someone killed.
wet reefer
New member
Sure there might be voltage but with little or no current potential (high resistance from the source) adding a ground probe isnt going to trip a GFI and will again just provide the means for electrons to flow (not many have you)
So what happens when a person , who happens to be grounded puts their hand in the tank. It don't take a genius to figure that one out.
So what happens when a person , who happens to be grounded puts their hand in the tank. It don't take a genius to figure that one out.
dvanacker
DID I SOUNDS SMRT??
Please if you dont know electricity dont bother arguing with me.
I can read 120volts AC in my tank with my fluke when my float switch is on (in series with my solenoid) but when I stick my hand in there I dont feel a thing. I could be standing in water holding the grounding probe and I wouldnt feel a thing. This is because the source is a high resistive leak. Very little current can pass.
Now if there is exposed live AC coming from submerged equipment that would mean low resistance and would result in a shock.
The point is stray voltage is everywhere.....but if it is high resistance can go no where.
A ground is just a path for stray electrons to flow..... and the end result depends on alot of things like resistance, volts and current.
I can read 120volts AC in my tank with my fluke when my float switch is on (in series with my solenoid) but when I stick my hand in there I dont feel a thing. I could be standing in water holding the grounding probe and I wouldnt feel a thing. This is because the source is a high resistive leak. Very little current can pass.
Now if there is exposed live AC coming from submerged equipment that would mean low resistance and would result in a shock.
The point is stray voltage is everywhere.....but if it is high resistance can go no where.
A ground is just a path for stray electrons to flow..... and the end result depends on alot of things like resistance, volts and current.
wet reefer
New member
No arguement here. I can only hope that anyone with a shread of common sense would think that having stray voltage in their tank is not OK. I don't give too much electrical advice because of liabilty concerns. But I will say I have been in the trade for 28yrs, teach NEC and electrical theory courses to electrical inspectors and contractors, have run an electrical construction business for over 20yrs.
So to those willing to listen, use a ground probe along with GFI protection. I'ts that simple.
So to those willing to listen, use a ground probe along with GFI protection. I'ts that simple.
dvanacker
DID I SOUNDS SMRT??
If you go back and read what I said:
I agree.....it probably is a good idea for OUR health. But the idea of a grounding probe is marketed as for the health of the tank inhabitants which I dont believe is correct.
So I agree that a GFI and GROUND PROBE is a good idea for our health. YES. Just to make that clear.
And I dont appriaciate you saying Listening to me is going to kill someone. Especially when you havent proved anything I said to be wrong.
I agree.....it probably is a good idea for OUR health. But the idea of a grounding probe is marketed as for the health of the tank inhabitants which I dont believe is correct.
So I agree that a GFI and GROUND PROBE is a good idea for our health. YES. Just to make that clear.
And I dont appriaciate you saying Listening to me is going to kill someone. Especially when you havent proved anything I said to be wrong.
dvanacker
DID I SOUNDS SMRT??
Your right stray voltage is not ok.....but a grounding probe can be a cover up if there is not enough current to trip the GFI.
I beleive if you use float switches you WILL have stray voltage in your tank. I wish I got a 12v solenoid because of this reason but it is a high resitance leak and is not going to shock anyone.
wet reefer
New member
Talk about sparks! Please understand that when you post here that you work in the field people will take your words literally and may not understand what exactly it is your trying to say. I do understand (but don't agree completely) what you are saying. But most would agree that OUR lives are more important that our tanks inhabitants. Had you said you were Joe the carpenter I would not have been so rough. Maybe too rough, but I see what happens when people get the wrong advice or misinterpret advice given all the time.
Please understand that when you post here that you work in the field people will take your words literally and may not understand what exactly it is your trying to say. I do understand (but don't agree completely) what you are saying. But most would agree that OUR lives are more important that our tanks inhabitants. Had you said you were Joe the carpenter I would not have been so rough. Maybe too rough, but I see what happens when people get the wrong advice or misinterpret advice given all the time.
dvanacker
DID I SOUNDS SMRT??
I admit that you have more electrical experience then I.
I think the problem was I was talking about a ground probe for the sake of the tank inhabitants and you were talking about safety. There is alot of missunderstanding when it comes to ground probes. Some people think its for the fish. Some people dont use a GFI but have the tank grounded.....you just never know.
Of course safety is first and after this disscussion I would recommend anyone to get a grounding probe and use GFI circuits.
I just love heated debates....hahaha
I think the problem was I was talking about a ground probe for the sake of the tank inhabitants and you were talking about safety. There is alot of missunderstanding when it comes to ground probes. Some people think its for the fish. Some people dont use a GFI but have the tank grounded.....you just never know.
Of course safety is first and after this disscussion I would recommend anyone to get a grounding probe and use GFI circuits.
I just love heated debates....hahaha
wet reefer
New member
I just love heated debates....hahaha [/B][/QUOTE]
Me too! and it gets me in trouble sometimes
I apologize for my tone.
So you want to talk about the resistance of sea water and how much current would be required to stop a heart if it had to travel 4ft across the water? I don't
peace
Me too! and it gets me in trouble sometimes
I apologize for my tone.
So you want to talk about the resistance of sea water and how much current would be required to stop a heart if it had to travel 4ft across the water? I don't
peace
easttn
Premium Member
I lost my entire 5 years of collecting to stray voltage. So don't sing that song to me. I'm an electrical engineer and I had GFI and a grounding probe. I know the root of the failure mode and the path current remained in the tank. Until this happens to you don't prognosticate. This event has caused me to quit reefing, but I will remain a posting member as I do love it so.
wet reefer
New member
Sorry I can't tell what side of the fence your on. Are you saying you lost your reef BECAUSE you used a ground probe?
easttn
Premium Member
No I'm saying that I lost my reef to a grounding probe. The trickle voltage was introduced via a main pump coil cap shorting to the case of the pump. The failure was slow, but steadily increasing current into the tank via the ground potential pump. When the circuit finally sensed the failure, the pump ceased operation.
The water level in the main display dropped and exposed the top 1/8 of my Tunze stream above waterline. This in turn sprayed my 400W bulbs, which of course cracked the outer UV shield but not the element itself. The combination of trickle voltage and Massive UV killed everything while I was in Ca coral shopping.
The water level in the main display dropped and exposed the top 1/8 of my Tunze stream above waterline. This in turn sprayed my 400W bulbs, which of course cracked the outer UV shield but not the element itself. The combination of trickle voltage and Massive UV killed everything while I was in Ca coral shopping.
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