Grounding probes: Hazard or helpful?

[Harry_Fish]

Don't take this as gospel as I am NOT an electrician.

Back in my amateur radio days guys would use a post hole
digger to go as deep as you can, put the rod in the hole and drive it in the rest of the way.

Then back fill it with bentonite clay (some clumping kitty litter is made of this).
It will improve the ground rod as the clay holds moisture and makes the ground connection better.

I'm not sure if this carries over to standard electrical wireing
or not or if it is even NEC approved so please check first.

 

[stugray]

aztecaphoto,

You'll need a pro to tell you exactly what you need, but here's the 30 second version for a "professional ground well".

Dig hole as big around & as deep as you can ( powered post hole digger ). A soil analysis may be required to tell you how deep & how big around.

Drive a copper rod into the ground TBD feet below the hole that you dug.

Fill the hole most of the way with Salts ( compostion & quantity to be determined by the "expert" ).

Fill the top X inches with backfill. Done!

Some cases they then make sure that the ground well stays moist. One method is to run the AC drain line into it.

Stu

 

[aztecaphoto]

Thanks!
In Mexico City the soil is salty and with high humidity. (remember, we use to be a lake in aztecs days). So, if you dig a hole, let´s say, 9 feet, you will find water.
People here use to grab a steel rod in fundation, and that´s the ground (old days, old houses, like mine).
New buildings are fitted with propper grounding.
So, that´s why I ask.
I think just a copper rod will work, don´t you thing?

 

[Young Frankenstein]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13333649#post13333649 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by L98-Z
As a recently graduated electrical engineer, who does not perform any real engineering work (government). I found this to be an interesting thread.

I'm impressed by Bean. Appears to be very knowledgeable, extremely clear, and surprisingly very understanding when others choose to debate in a different manner.

Good thread overall.

Bean is very knowledgeable, and not only in electrical issues but many different fields. He surprise's me some times with his answers and how willing he is to go into detail writing an explanation. But some times the way he answers another professional is where I have a problem with him. Anyway ITS ALL GOOD, people come here in RC looking for answers, and they find many professionals giving them true and honest answers, more honest and correct than the people they hire to do work for them usually.

 

[Harry_Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13333649#post13333649 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by L98-Z

I'm impressed by Bean. Appears to be very knowledgeable, extremely clear, and surprisingly very understanding when others choose to debate in a different manner.

......

Actually I have a lot of respect for bean, even thought we got
into a bit of a ****ing match in the past as I was being a hard
headed German.

So to that end I want to make a formal Public apology for being a
Richard in the past. (No offence intended to anyone named Dick).

 

[aztecaphoto]

Great!
It seems that everybody is getting friendly again.
I´ve seen this threat,and sometimes is not pleasant, but the answers worth a lot.
Please, keep the track...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13335179#post13335179 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Young Frankenstein
... Anyway ITS ALL GOOD, people come here in RC looking for answers, and they find many professionals giving them true and honest answers, more honest and correct than the people they hire to do work for them usually.

Right!
My electrician told me that a wire to any steel rod, from foundation (we build with concrete, tiles and steel. Not with wood) will do the job, as the soil is as I stated before.
Is he right?

Thanks

 

[Young Frankenstein]

A ground to the foundation steel is not enough to bring resistance down to the required 25 ohms, and most states require 2 ground rods, a tap before the water main and the building steel. With all that said, this issue changes allot from state to state and has allot of amendments to NEC, example NY city requires only a tap to the water main, the place is all granite and you could not drive a ground rod easily.
Anyway the more connections to earth the better the ground and safety.

 

[miwoodar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13335464#post13335464 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Harry_Fish
Actually I have a lot of respect for bean, even thought we got
into a bit of a ****ing match in the past as I was being a hard
headed German.

So to that end I want to make a formal Public apology for being a
Richard in the past. (No offence intended to anyone named Dick).

Not to derail this thread or anything (as if any of the major threads on RC has been linear as of late :lol: ). Bean, we've squared off a time or two as well. If you've ever desired an apology from me you've got it - the blanket version if you will. You've got a big noodle in that head for yours. Thanks again to the mods for letting you back and thanks to you for your insightful posts!

PS - Your inbox is full.

 

[runningnreefing]

Should I have ground probes in both the DT and sump or is one ground probe in either sufficient.

 

[Michael]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13338991#post13338991 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by runningnreefing
Should I have ground probes in both the DT and sump or is one ground probe in either sufficient.

1 in each is a good idea, provided there are joined together at the same ground point,if the return is off for a water change etc then both water resevoirs are protected should any other electrical items still be switched on, just dont forget to also have all electrical eqipment protected by gfci as well

 

[runningnreefing]

Michael,

Thanks for the info.

 

[aztecaphoto]

Thnks Youngfrankestein:
I will connect the earth wire to one steel rod, and to the main water.
I have both options near my central panel.
Also, I will check if i got 25 ohms.
But, how can I do that? one end of the multimeter to the ground connection, and the other to...where?

thanks

 

[stugray]

Hey Bean and/or Runner,

Could I use one of these on a residential 2 Phase breaker panel:

I had a couple of them lurking around the garage & tripped over them yesterday.

Here's a link to the datasheet:

http://production.littelfuse.com/data/en/Data_Sheets/BA_BB2.pdf

It says they are good to a peak pulse of 70,000 A :eek1:

Can they be installed after the main breaker, or before ( before would require pulling the meter since I am not YF ;-)

Stu

 

[Young Frankenstein]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13395659#post13395659 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stugray
Hey Bean and/or Runner,

Could I use one of these on a residential 2 Phase breaker panel:

I had a couple of them lurking around the garage & tripped over them yesterday.

Here's a link to the datasheet:

http://production.littelfuse.com/data/en/Data_Sheets/BA_BB2.pdf

It says they are good to a peak pulse of 70,000 A :eek1:

Can they be installed after the main breaker, or before ( before would require pulling the meter since I am not YF ;-)

Stu

Ok I am not BA but MOVs are MOVs all Surge suppressors work with MOVs theres nothing else basically, The only thing that I see being a problem is the AIC rating, Power company's HV transformers are usually 65Ka and in residential designs all the equipment is supposed to be 22-15Ka so that it can fail before The power company's transformer (usually all that is theoretical) because in a dead short or lightning things will probably react the way they want anyway to make a long story short I would use it.

 

[Young Frankenstein]

Oh by the way any surge surpressor can go on any size breaker, it dosnot have to go in the main or before the meter.
It reacts way faster than any breaker can trip (nanoseconds)

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13395870#post13395870 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Young Frankenstein
Ok I am not BA but MOVs are MOVs all Surge suppressors work with MOVs theres nothing else basically,

Umm No

MOVs are one method of clamping a surge. Gas tubes, Zener diodes and Silicone Avalanche Diodes are also used to clamp surges.

SAD (Silicone Avalanche Diodes).

Most high end devices use a hybrid approach that consists of MOV and SAD banks. SADs are much faster than MOVs and are NOT degraded each time they conduct. MOVs are degraded with every surge. However, the SADs can not conduct as much current as an MOV. We tend to place SADs in parallel with MOVs to help protect the MOV from degredation at low transient levels. The fact the SAD reacts faster allows the MOV to sit idle most of the time. At peak transients, the MOV will kick in and protect the SAD from damage. So yes, many surge clamps use MOVs, but not all

The whole topic of "MOVs are MOVs" is another story and not really relevant here... but the long of the short is that there is certainly a large variation in the quality and capacity of devices. When they are used in banks, they need to be as matched as possible for the device to work as expected for as long as possible.

The only thing that I see being a problem is the AIC rating, Power company's HV transformers are usually 65Ka and in residential designs all the equipment is supposed to be 22-15Ka so that it can fail before The power company's transformer

Having a 500kA surge protector does not violate hte AIC rating. The surge device is not an active link in the power distribution system, it is a fault path. I do not install anything less than 100kA in commercial applications, no matter how small the service is and usually install 160kA devices.


You can install them either place stu. The easiest would be to toss one on each phase in the main panel and tie them to 15A or 20A breakers. You don't want them tied to the service without a breaker and/or means of physical disconnect. Keep the leads as short as possible. I would put them in a metal box for safety.

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13395885#post13395885 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Young Frankenstein
Oh by the way any surge surpressor can go on any size breaker, it dosnot have to go in the main or before the meter.
It reacts way faster than any breaker can trip (nanoseconds)

Sometimes we place them before the main because we want to ensure that the surge is clamped before it ever reaches devices tied to the panel. Inches make a difference, even at the speed of light....

 

[stugray]

Thanks all,

YF sorry I left you out.

Stu

 

[Young Frankenstein]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13395999#post13395999 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Umm No

MOVs are one method of clamping a surge. Gas tubes, Zener diodes and Silicone Avalanche Diodes are also used to clamp surges.

SAD (Silicone Avalanche Diodes).

Most high end devices use a hybrid approach that consists of MOV and SAD banks. SADs are much faster than MOVs and are NOT degraded each time they conduct. MOVs are degraded with every surge. However, the SADs can not conduct as much current as an MOV. We tend to place SADs in parallel with MOVs to help protect the MOV from degredation at low transient levels. The fact the SAD reacts faster allows the MOV to sit idle most of the time. At peak transients, the MOV will kick in and protect the SAD from damage. So yes, many surge clamps use MOVs, but not all

The whole topic of "MOVs are MOVs" is another story and not really relevant here... but the long of the short is that there is certainly a large variation in the quality and capacity of devices. When they are used in banks, they need to be as matched as possible for the device to work as expected for as long as possible.

Having a 500kA surge protector does not violate hte AIC rating. The surge device is not an active link in the power distribution system, it is a fault path. I do not install anything less than 100kA in commercial applications, no matter how small the service is and usually install 160kA devices.


You can install them either place stu. The easiest would be to toss one on each phase in the main panel and tie them to 15A or 20A breakers. You don't want them tied to the service without a breaker and/or means of physical disconnect. Keep the leads as short as possible. I would put them in a metal box for safety.

he is on a Rampage todayyyyy.......... I am staying away from this one stu, no more replys ..........

 

[Young Frankenstein]

he is on a Rampage todayyyyy.......... I am staying away from this one stu, no more replys ..........