Grounding probes: Hazard or helpful?

[BeanAnimal]

Frank... Don't be that guy... It is starting to get more than a little old.

A rampage? I answered a question and responded to a somewhat inaccurate comment posted by you. As usual, instead of responding on topic, you have made some nitwit comment to infer that I don''t know what I am talking about.

Everything I said is 100% fact based. Your an electrical estimator with high voltage experience, great, have a cookie. I am an educated person with a solid background in electricuty and electronics. I have experience in both fields AND I sell and install TVSS devices. The conversation is more than a little in my ballpark.

As has been the pattern, you made comments that were questionable or in error and were called on it. You answer is to not answer in context and instead create a diversion. Predictable if not sad.

Either start responding in context with well thought out replies that speak to the topic at hand, or don't respond at all. You have destroyed more than a few threads with your outlandish comments and diversions. If you don't agree with what somebody says, then use fact and intelligent conversation to refute it, not ad-homenim attacks and straw-men.

 

[BeanAnimal]

You know the more I read your post and subsuquent comments...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13395870#post13395870 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Young Frankenstein
Ok I am not BA but MOVs are MOVs all Surge suppressors work with MOVs theres nothing else basically,

Kindly and simply, umm no

http://www.sankosha-usa.com/
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1155238,00.asp
http://www.geindustrial.com/publibrary/checkout/Application and Technical|sad-vs-mov|PDF
etc..

We use SADs alone or in hybrid setups.
We use Gas Tubes alone or in hybrid setups.

There IS basically something else Frank. That makes you statement kinda wrong.

The only thing that I see being a problem is the AIC rating, Power company's HV transformers are usually 65Ka and in residential designs all the equipment is supposed to be 22-15Ka so that it can fail before The power company's transformer

Your comments illustrates that you do not understand the AIC rating as it applies to FAULT current vs surge current clamping. Anything panel rated will have the AIC FAULT current rating or needs to be attached to an AIC rated CIRCUIT BREAKER.

Furthermore, you can certainly use HIGHER rated components on the service than what the service itself is rated at. I think you have your logic backwards. The AIC rating is NOT the failure rating Frank, it is the current that the device can withstand and still act as a disconnect between the two circuit segments. If you had a panel with a 100kAIC rating, that means it would be rendered safe up to 100kA of fault current.

Once again you have said something that would appear to illustrate a basic lack of understanding of a subject that you personally claim to be an expert on.

FWIW, MOST of the units available on the market for residential and commercial surge supression are rated at a clamping current of well over 15-22kA and a majority are also capable of clamping more than 65kA. Again, I think you are confusing transient SURGE current with FAULT current.

As you can see BOTH points you made in your post were suspect Frank. Ohh, it is kA not Ka btw

 

[Young Frankenstein]

WHAT ? Are you explaining AIC rating to me ? You can sell all the surge suppressors you want and yes by all means be an expert! but keep the explaining to whom asks for it, if I ask you explain to me, if i dont please dont lecture me on something thats I do. With me this is a full-time job friend. I have degrees in electronics, college education and work on this field for 3 decades including live High Voltage, and certified at that also. So if I say I dont see a problem with it, except the AIC rating its for a reason. (Put that on paper and try getting it approved throe the City's Bureau of electrical control) if you dont see a problem. Thats it I am done. Bean Animal knows it all and everyone else has to listen to your mambo jumbo.......... Take a chill pill genius.

 

[Tang Salad]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13396764#post13396764 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Young Frankenstein
WHAT ? Are you explaining AIC rating to me ? You can sell all the surge suppressors you want and yes by all means be an expert! but keep the explaining to whom asks for it, if I ask you explain to me, if i dont please dont lecture me on something thats I do. With me this is a full-time job friend. I have degrees in electronics, college education and work on this field for 3 decades including live High Voltage, and certified at that also. So if I say I dont see a problem with it, except the AIC rating its for a reason. (Put that on paper and try getting it approved throe the City's Bureau of electrical control) if you dont see a problem. Thats it I am done. Bean Animal knows it all and everyone else has to listen to your mambo jumbo.......... Take a chill pill genius.

YF, reading this I noticed one thing: you aren't addressing Bean's points. Instead, you're talking only about your background. Every single sentence above is about you; not a single one is about the electrics. It's called an 'appeal to authority' argument and it is very weak. High school Debate Teams learn about this on day one; most adults can pick it out fairly easily as well.

Address the specific points above to prove your point, and leave your resume out of it. Sorry if this sounds harsh.

 

[Young Frankenstein]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13396174#post13396174 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal

Everything I said is 100% fact based. Your an electrical estimator with high voltage experience, great, have a cookie. I am an educated person with a solid background in electricuty and electronics. I have experience in both fields AND I sell and install TVSS devices. The conversation is more than a little in my ballpark.

There you go. And you telling me?

 

[Young Frankenstein]

And my answer (BEC will reject any electrical drawings for residential use that are higher than the power company's AIC) that why we get the "Fault Current Letter" from the power company, and thats why BEC asks for it.Period. Dot. END

 

[stugray]

Frank,

I dont understand how the AIC ( Ampere Interrupting Capacity ) is affected by my adding a MOV. Please elaborate.

The AIC rating is there to prove that a Fault Interruptor ( Circuit breaker ) can handle the absolute worst case fault expected in a certain situation ( rated as to their ability to open the protected circuit ).

I dont see how a lightning/surge supressor could possibly affect that rating since you said yourself "It reacts way faster than any breaker can trip (nanoseconds)"

If the MOV were to conduct the transient surge through itself, in nanoseconds ( and dissipate it ), how could that possibly effect the breaker which takes 10s to 100s of milliseconds to respond?

The thought is that if the MOV can sink more than 65Ka ( the utility feed ) for more than a few milliseconds, then it would explode! ( acting ultimately as a fuse ).

I Guess that ( worst case ) if the MOV were to conduct 50 kA, for just long enough to blow up, it may well weld the Breaker's contacts closed.... Is this what the NEC is concerned about?

That would be one reason to install it BEFORE the MAIN breaker... NO? ( so as to NOT pull that kind of current through the Main Breaker? )


If I recall, one reason why the military didnt like the "Gas tubes" (as Bean mentions ) was that: once they "explode" they are no longer in line to protect from the next fault & needed to be inspected regularly.

The unit I have was designed to protect a subpanel of a Milstar facility, I have a hard time believing that it isnt adequate for residential.



Bean,

Are you saying that I can install it on ANY breaker and get "good enough" protection? I guess "any" is better than "none". That would sure be easier than trying to connect it to the Mains.

Stu

 

[BeanAnimal]

Frank,

Every one of these threads follows the same pattern. You make statements that are questionable, if not outright wrong. You defend them by providing your credentials. You try to discredit me and others with personal attacks and name calling, you then say "Im done". You never clarify your statement or provide supporting information, other than you credentials and personal attacks. Back up what you say Frank, do it kindly and do it with factual information, not your resume.

Am I explaining AIC to you? You be the judge, but your statements in this thread regarding AIC are clearly not correct and your MOV statement also showed that you are not fully up to speed on that topic either. You have clearly confused the FAULT rating of a device with the surge capacity of that device. They have nothing to do with one another. You have also clearly illustrated that you are confused about what the AIC rating means. You are the person who made the comments, I merely responded. The AIC rating of residential equipment is not set low so that it fails before the transformer. It is set to a safe level based on the average secondary capacity of the transformer and service drop, not the primary side of the transformer and the transmission line capacity.

I am up to speed on both topics and can clearly articulate my point, and did so in TWO separate posts, as well as provided industry links on the subject.

Please, leave the name calling and theatrics out of this and just respond to the points being made.

 

[Young Frankenstein]

Stu to be honest from what I have seen is just the construction of the unit having a thicker metal gage etc. that gives it the higher AIC rating, and the amount of MOVs used in the unit, other than that I dont see a difference with the increase in AIC. On high power surge they all explode,(my opinion). I would use those units.
As far as installations most commercial government facilities have TVSS at the MDPs and after at all panels.

 

[Young Frankenstein]

Ok Bean ok .... let it go.......... I just got back from the beach and I am in a good mood going back to my BIG MAMA thread ...............

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13397929#post13397929 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Young Frankenstein
Ok Bean ok .... let it go.......... I just got back from the beach and I am in a good mood going back to my BIG MAMA thread ...............

Instead of admitting your wrong you would rather divert the attention and try to make me out to be the bad guy (after insulting me and others). Why is it that you tout your credentials, tell us we are full of mambo jambo and then when called on that, you ask people to "let it go" instead of admitting you were wrong? You have yet to defend ANY of the numerous eronous electrical statements you have made with anything but insults, diversions and your resume.

You said Ok I am not BA but MOVs are MOVs all Surge suppressors work with MOVs theres nothing else basically, I pointed out that there are other surge devices that are very commonly used.

You said The only thing that I see being a problem is the AIC rating, Power company's HV transformers are usually 65Ka and in residential designs all the equipment is supposed to be 22-15Ka so that it can fail before The power company's transformer I pointed out that you are confusing the surge rating with the fault current rating. I also pointed out that your statement on this subject do not convey an understanding of the AIC rating and what it means.

Instead of defending your statements, you tried to divert attention and infer that I am wrong by clowning me. he is on a Rampage todayyyyy.......... I am staying away from this one stu, no more replys ..........

You went from there to a personal attack and yet one more list of your credentials to infer that I am wrong. That did not work, so now you insist that the subject be dropped.

Come on Frank, man up here. When you make a statemet and sombody shows it to be wrong, either defend it with fact and logic or admit you are wrong. This is the nth time in half a dozen threads you have done this.

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13397346#post13397346 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stugray
Are you saying that I can install it on ANY breaker and get "good enough" protection? I guess "any" is better than "none". That would sure be easier than trying to connect it to the Mains.

Stu

Yeah, connect them to any breaker in the panel. You want one for each leg. Keep the wire runs as short as possible.

 

[Young Frankenstein]

Bean in Greece we say, "Ela papou mou na sou dixo ta abelohorafa sou" = "Come grand father I will show you where your vineyards are"

 

[Young Frankenstein]

 

[stugray]

Funny that Bean responds in a mature & intelligent manner when he says "You have yet to defend ANY of the numerous eronous electrical statements you have made with anything but insults, diversions" AND "Instead of defending your statements, you tried to divert attention "

THEN YF responds with "Come grand father I will show you where your vineyards are" & the cool smoking dragon above.

That reminds me of:

I think YF just proved Bean's point himself......

Stu

 

[Young Frankenstein]

 

[BeanAnimal]

I guess that is you way of admitting you are wrong? I pointed out errors in your statements and you have yet to respond, other than to post your credentials and some insults and cartoons.

Don't take my word for it, note the AIC section at this link. I can provide additional reputable information (the NEC if you like) if one source is not enough.
http://www.maintenanceresources.com/referencelibrary/ezine/eleccircbreak2.html

What about all of the other errors you have made? What about the insults, personal attacks and dishonesty? This has gone beyond silly or reasonable.

Why am I making a big deal? Because, you have yet to admit to making a single error or mistake when you have irrefutably been proven to be wrong. Because you have been openly dishonest in attempts to hide your errors and paint others as wrong. Because, you have been so insulting to so many well informed people and been so openly dishonest in attempts to discredit honest people.

Come on Steve, enough is enough.

 

[funman1]

This is frikin hilarious!
Gota love ya Bean and Stu!!!
You guys are spot on everytime!

Bean says just about everthing I would, but better and with exact references.
I teach this stuff to electrical students
This one is being printed and taken into class for a learning experience!

 

[Young Frankenstein]

Bean sorry man, some times I just cant take your stuff seriously anyway, ok I will answer seriously, and I didn't insult you, the dragon was an advertisement for my Green Dragon pump
Ok I apologize if I offended you, here we go.

You are insisting that lets say 150ka equipment can be installed in residential applications when the power company's Fault current is 35K. Is that correct ? yes or no ?

 

[Young Frankenstein]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13406577#post13406577 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by funman1
This is frikin hilarious!
Gota love ya Bean and Stu!!!
You guys are spot on everytime!

Bean says just about everthing I would, but better and with exact references.
I teach this stuff to electrical students
This one is being printed and taken into class for a learning experience!

You are teaching electricity from stuff printed from RC ? Way to go there