Help me design my 180g ....

[ghever]

Hi Guys

I currently have a 120g cube..but looking to upgrade to a 180gal 72x24x24. It will have starphire on 3 viewing sides. I plan on keeping around 50-70% SPS, rest is LPS, zoos, clams etc.

Here is what I am thinking of running it...

Overflow: Center trapezoid
Returns: thinking of 2 3/4in returns...1 on each side of overflow
Closed loop: thinking of 2 inch drain and 4 1inch returns.
Ocean Motions : 4 way, version 3
Return Pump: Gen x PCX55
Closed Loop Pump: Sequence Reeflo Dart
Heaters: 2 x 250w Ebo Jager
Controller: AC III
Ca. Reactor Korallin 3002
Skimmer: Going to try out the Reef Octopus 3000
Lighting: 3 x 250w MH, some HO T5s as supplements
Typhoon III RODI unit

Plumbing will go through the wall to garage where sump, fuge, and all filtration/electronics will be housed. I have 2 55gal drums to keep fresh and saltwater with the idea of making water changes automatic. I will also have a frag tank connected to the sump/fuge.

Any comments on my intended set up? Any suggestions? Hints?

Appreciate any info you guys can provide... especially regarding the tank, since I need to order it soon... is a 2 inch drain absolutely necessary for te OM 4way or can I get away with a 1.5inch? I have ready about some clicking issues...obviously the smaller the diameter of the pipes, cheaper the plumbing (ball valves etc) will be.

Looking forward to your inputs.

G

 

[superedge88]

I would go with a hammerhead as your closed loop pump, you can always dial the thing down, and depending on where you place the pump you may want the extra umph to combat head pressure.

 

[hahnmeister]

The hammerhead is nice, with over 5000gph of flow, but its also over 300watts!! Perhaps one Dart for now, and another one later if needed would be a good option as well. OR, Tunze streams for even more flow for a fraction of the wattage.

My comment was going to be in the Ca Reactor. I have a Korallin, and it does just fine by me, but if you want to get something higher in output (your oversized selection suggests this), keep in mind that the reactor size only determines how long between refills, not the output capacity. IF you want better capacity, perhaps a delted fluidized reactor would be a better option. They are perhaps the single highest output reactors I have ever seen in action....output readings of over 80dKH are possible. This might be a better idea.

 

[ghever]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7049151#post7049151 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
The hammerhead is nice, with over 5000gph of flow, but its also over 300watts!! Perhaps one Dart for now, and another one later if needed would be a good option as well. OR, Tunze streams for even more flow for a fraction of the wattage.

My comment was going to be in the Ca Reactor. I have a Korallin, and it does just fine by me, but if you want to get something higher in output (your oversized selection suggests this), keep in mind that the reactor size only determines how long between refills, not the output capacity. IF you want better capacity, perhaps a delted fluidized reactor would be a better option. They are perhaps the single highest output reactors I have ever seen in action....output readings of over 80dKH are possible. This might be a better idea.

interesting...see i have never used a Ca reactor...so bigger size doesnt mean more output..just less time between changes..hmmm but its rated for more gallons? I think i understand why...key word being think

I dont think I need a Hammerhead...head loss wont be much... i mean...it will travel across the wall (no head loss) and then up maybe 5feet......actually, thinkin about it, since the pump will be in next room, i might be able to have it a few feet higher by puting my sump about 2 or 3 feet off the floor..

Any other pumps out there you'd recommend instead?

I think I got an idea of how to plumb my tank from Paul at OM... will try to post a pic of the plan.

G

 

[infrared69]

stick with the dart, there is no vertical head loss on a closed loop system, just friction loss whch is minimal. the 3600 gph dart with prob have an output of 3400. ps, i order the same OM setup and pump last week, mine will be here friady.

 

[infrared69]

only thin i planned differently was insteat of one 2" inlet to the CL, i am plannng 3 1" feeds. didnt want to suck all the water from the same part of my tank or create too much of a suction. i am evenly spacing them across the back and teeing them togehter under the stand.

 

[ghever]

thanks for that input...

cool, so no head loss... a DART is PLENTY of flow for a 180..i think some guys like to go over board... but with a dart and a pcx at about 900-1000gph....I have around 4500 gph, much more than 20x turnover of the tank....

as for the drain for closed loop...I plan on making a T per Paul's suggestion....so water draws in from both sides of the T....

 

[superedge88]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7059066#post7059066 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by infrared69
stick with the dart, there is no vertical head loss on a closed loop system, just friction loss whch is minimal. the 3600 gph dart with prob have an output of 3400. ps, i order the same OM setup and pump last week, mine will be here friady.

There is vertical head loss on a closed loop, after all, you are pumping the water above the body of water that you are pulling from, though the height above the tank that you are pumping it to is very little, there is still vertical head loss. I guess this would only be true in some different types of closed loops, some do return the water at the same level as the intake of the closed loop, so in that case there would be no vertical head pressure induced by height. On my closed loop the manifold sits on top of the tank, so I do have some head pressure induced by height. Depending on where exactly you place the closed loop pump you are going to also be dealing withe possible elbows and angles that will also add head pressure, so just keep this in mind. The amount of head pressure may be very small, just something to keep in mind that many people have misconceptions about. I am a huge advocate of going a little larger (especially when deciding on a pump) you can always dial things back, but if you get the pump on the system and realize it isn't as much flow as you'd like...:mad2:
Another little bit of advice I'd throw out to you, If I was looking for a reeflo pump, I'd try and find an older style one new or used. The older style ones that are gray with the cooling fins on the motor casing are much better for heat dissipation and noise. These older style reeflos are also very easy to switch out the baldor motors on in the extremely odd case that you were to burn out the motor. Just make sure that you get a wet end that is black or gray, and not the clearish blue. The blue wet ends (volutes) are brittle and VERY easy to break when tightening down fittings to the pump. If you do end up getting one with the blue wet end just give MDM (makers of sequence pumps) and they will gladly send you a newer wet end to put on the pump at minimal (shipping) cost to you.

 

[hahnmeister]

superedge88, there is no head loss because you are NOT pumping the water above the body of water that you are pulling from. The water is sucked in from the main tank, and pumped right back in. Its like putting the pump right in the tank, but with some more piping on the inlet and outlet. Its the whole point of a closed loop. Sure, the pressure from where the intake and outputs might vary if they are at varying levels in the tank, but the pressures equalize inside the piping as well. Otherwise, if the pressures didnt equalize, by conservation of energy calculations, the close loop would continue to flow/backflow even after the pump was shut off.

The only reason one might have for head-loss on a closed loop is by using restrictive plumbing. On a Dart, you will want at least a 1.5" return, or dual 1" returns to minimize head loss from elbows. The narrower a pipe is, the faster the liquid flows, and the more velocity it has, the less pressure it has...this is why larger diameter piping, or multiple outlets are used. If you try to run that Dart on 1" output piping, sure, you will prolly only get 1/2 its possible flow.

 

[superedge88]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7060136#post7060136 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by superedge88
There is vertical head loss on a closed loop, after all, you are pumping the water above the body of water that you are pulling from, though the height above the tank that you are pumping it to is very little, there is still vertical head loss. I guess this would only be true in some different types of closed loops, some do return the water at the same level as the intake of the closed loop, so in that case there would be no vertical head pressure induced by height. On my closed loop the manifold sits on top of the tank, so I do have some head pressure induced by height.

Re-read my post Hahnmiester...basically I stated that closed loops with manifolds that sit above the water level DO have head pressured induced by height, but when returning the water at water level you don't. It totally depends on the type of closed loop used. I suppose I did get a little wordy, so what I wrote may have been a little confusing, I could have been much more straight to the point

 

[hahnmeister]

FWIW, I always thought a closed loop, by definition, was one drawing from the same body as it pumps to... I cant think of an exception to this. Even with your manifold above the water, as long as the inlets and outlets are in the tank, the pressures equalize... anything else would be an 'open loop'.

 

[ghever]

Guys i think we are nitpicking here... even if there is some loss, at 2 feet, what would it be, like 3000 or 3300 gph... plus another 1000gph... we are talking over 20x turnover.. that should be fine for a 60-70% SPS tank dont you think?

Any other suggestions?? What about lighting?

I have heard and read about success of people running T5 HOs instead of MH... I know they need to be overrun by Icecaps or workhorse ballasts....if I did MH I would probably need 2 x 250w DE.... that might cost a bundle....T5s might cost less and work just as good... any suggestions?

G

 

[hahnmeister]

Well, the cross braces on the more common 180s make two halides hard to place, and 3 the norm.

Perhaps you should tag along in another thread for ideas...as we are helping a buddy of mine select lights for his 150.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=807854&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

If you wanted T5, I would say you could do 6-8 5' bulbs and be fine. Thats up to 640 watts of T5...plenty w/o an icecap ballast even.

 

[ghever]

just an update...

I have decided to go with a barebottom tank..but probably going to use a thin starboard with faux sand glued on top of it to make the bottom more natural looking.

I am still going to use the DART for the closed loop.

However, for my return pump, I am considering a smaller pump that does closer to 300-400gph.

This will allow me feed my in line skimmer via gravity and not use another pump...

Or do you guys think 300gph though a 120gal sump is too slow?

If so, how would you guys recommend feeding the skimmer that is rated to 1.5x system volume?

thanks
G

 

[goby1]

Superedge, there is no head for a closed loop. If the pump intake is below the output, the water depth pressure balances the rise. The only losses due to water are turbulent/pipe length losses.

G1

 

[ghever]

well my pump intake (assuming u mean the 1.5in drain hole) will be at same level or maybe 6 to 12in above the 4 closed loop return holes....so there will be slight head loss?

 

[hahnmeister]

no head loss at all. The pressure equalizes inside the pipe. Imagine the pump turned off, right? Well, water doesnt keep flowing through it when the pump is off. How? Well, because the pressure inside the pipes changes just like in the tank. The net pressure due to depth is the same at any given depth inside the pipe or in the tank.