Help! Why do my Snails Keep Dying

[tmz]

For invertebrates and mollusks the shipping water will likely be at higher sg since they can't osmoregulate.

. It's pretty common for fish to be shipped in low sg . I beleive it has do do with increased oxygen solubility and lower ph for reducing ammonia toxicity as ammonia builds up in the bag water.

For fish , I acclimate the qt tank;not the fish and avoid the prolonged stay in the bag water. I'll set the qt up with sg lower than that anticipated in the bag water . After a 20 minute float of the unopened bag for temp acclimation, the bag is opened , the fish are removed quickly and added to the qt tank. Then sg is raised .001 pr day during the course of qt to match display levels.
During confinement, CO2 and ammonia build up in the bag water . The CO2 lowers ph. At low ph there is more H+ in the water which effects the proportions of NH3( more toxic ammonia) to NH4(less toxic ammonia/ammonium), the excess CO2 has the effect of making more of the total ammonia NH3 ,the less toxic form. When the bag is opened, excess CO2 equilibrates with the air, raising the ph. The result is more NH4, the more toxic form of ammonia. A stay in the bag water thus exposes the fish to risks of ammonia toxicity.

There is no need for drip acclimation when using a qt tank with sg equal to or lower than the bag water. Moving the fish out of the bag water is a matter of some urgency, imo.

 

[Gravesj1s]

For invertebrates and mollusks the shipping water will likely be at higher sg since they can't osmoregulate.

. It's pretty common for fish to be shipped in low sg . I beleive it has do do with increased oxygen solubility and lower ph for reducing ammonia toxicity as ammonia builds up in the bag water.

For fish , I acclimate the qt tank;not the fish and avoid the prolonged stay in the bag water. I'll set the qt up with sg lower than that anticipated in the bag water . After a 20 minute float of the unopened bag for temp acclimation, the bag is opened , the fish are removed quickly and added to the qt tank. Then sg is raised .001 pr day during the course of qt to match display levels.
During confinement, CO2 and ammonia build up in the bag water . The CO2 lowers ph. At low ph there is more H+ in the water which effects the proportions of NH3( more toxic ammonia) to NH4(less toxic ammonia/ammonium), the excess CO2 has the effect of making more of the total ammonia NH3 ,the less toxic form. When the bag is opened, excess CO2 equilibrates with the air, raising the ph. The result is more NH4, the more toxic form of ammonia. A stay in the bag water thus exposes the fish to risks of ammonia toxicity.

There is no need for drip acclimation when using a qt tank with sg equal to or lower than the bag water. Moving the fish out of the bag water is a matter of some urgency, imo.

The explaination and concern for NH3/4 and how it relates to Ph makes sense, I understand the concern there for getting fish out of the bag.Actually ,I cycled one of my tanks using a Ph monitor,didnt want to buy the ammonia kit.Im cheap.

- I think im not following that last paragraph at all.Is it a mis-statement ?

 

[tmz]

There is no need for drip acclimation when using a qt tank with sg equal to or lower than the bag water. Moving the fish out of the bag water is a matter of some urgency, imo.

It's what I mean to say.
Another benefit to having a qt tank. You can acclimate the tank rather than the fish in a bag. If you match the sg of the bag water or guess a a bit lower and float the unopened bag for temp acclimation , a drip isn't going to do anything to help the fish but long confinement during a drip in the bag might expose it to ammonia toxicity, particularly if the fish has been confined to the bag for a long period of time allowing ammonia and CO2 to build up from respiration and urine and ph to drop.
If the sg is a few points lower(even more ime) than the bag water it won't hurt the fish either as their internal sg is 1.008, so going down doesn't stress them like going up does.
Ph in the qt should be in normal ranges with water mixed and aged overnight and once the bag is opened the ph in the bag is going to shift anyway ,so there is nothing left to drip for.

 

[Gravesj1s]

Thanks for the further explanation,tmz.Seems a rock solid plan to follow,I like it and may try it in the future. This thread has peaked an interest for me and at this point I'd like to see/hear of others personal experiences,hope you dont mind.

I wish more people would chime in here and comment on how they go about acclimation.Personally,I'd like to see this topic carried through in detail.Discussing topics like this are useful and interesting way to learn more.

To me,this is one of those topics where the book says one thing and personal reefing experiences might say something else,or maybe more to it,I dont know.

Now from what I am being told,its common practice for lfs to run low salinity in their display tanks.Checking for myself I read 1.015 from a freshly calibrated refractometer.
My tank as mentioned normally resides @ 1.026..Now either Ive been either incredibly lucky or,theres more to what the book says in that you shouldn't raise S.G. .002/p/d with .001p/d prefered.Something just doesn't make sense here.I've been using the drip method for as long as I've been in the hobby,and honestly Ive never had any issues.

As Im thinking about it now,I guess I duplicated what I saw when walking into a lfs as a new shipment arrived,seeing pails lined up ,bags floating to temp and drip lines going for several hrs.

All I know is it seems to work.In very early reefkeeping when I didnt acclimate long enough is when I'd see snails sluggish and the majority die within a week,fish like the common ocellaris succumb to brooknella and/or ick,along with tangs and the few other types of fish Ive kept,usually within a weeks span.

Fwiw-with fish like the Anthias,I didn't have them bagged,I brought them home in a 5 gal pail of spent IO in about 1.5 gal of water.Dripped for about 5 hrs,no issues with them to date.Ive also, used the same practice with all my other fish with no outbreaks of ick or other health issuesthat I can attribute to acclimation. I guess what Im saying is if these shops keep low salinitys and most people use a drip method then there would have to be more to what the book says.
To date I can account for every fish I bought other than a jumper(yellow wm goby) and my prized( Helfrichi firefish).

 

[Flippers4pups]

No one has said this, but Six lines can acquire a taste for inverts.

 

[TruespeedEM1]

Ive always ordered from a certain site (4+ orders of over 100 snails) and never had any problems with losses, and this is their suggested acclimation:

"All Animals at this Time:
1. Float the bag in your tank to get the snail used to the temperature in your aquarium.
2. Wait 15 minutes.
3. Add animals to the tank, discard shipping water and any towels used in the packaging.

Important: Snails may go through shock during shipping, and be closed when they arrive. You should give them plenty of time to come out of their shells and move around before deciding they didn't make the trip. Ceriths may go dormant for up to 3 days.

You may find this to be different than the acclimation procedure you are used to carrying out. The reason we now ask our customers to use this procedure is because our snails and crabs live intertidally, and can handle swings in ph/salinity without a problem. However, what they can't handle is toxic levels of ammonia. During the shipping process, ammonia levels in the shipping bags build, while the ph level goes down. As the ph goes down the toxicity of ammonia also goes down. However, when your tank water with normal ph is introduced to the shipping bags, and the ph rises, so does the toxicity of the ammonia, and you will be poisoning the livestock. Please don't do this and certainly never let livestock sit out in buckets with shipping water exposed to fresh air for a long period of time, we know of no surer way to kill your new arrivals. Any other method of acclimation voids the Alive Arrival Guarantee. It is an easy method of acclimation and it works fine, please follow it. "

Not sure if you bought them online, so this may not even apply if you're getting them from a LFS

 

[Gravesj1s]

I rarely if ever order any livestock online for those very reasons and, the added lack of control of with shipping facilities.
I just prefer to buy local livestock and get the benefit of seeing what Im getting.

Yep ,understand the problems mentioned with NH3,the buildup of co2 in the closed bag from respiration suppresses Ph witch whitch keeps things on the safer side until the bag is opened,then as tmz explained ,the ratio of ammonium to ammonia shifts as it reacts with the air.More towards the ammonia side.My short layman style of saying I got it.
Bought locally and brought home in a pail none of this is of as much concern to me.While drip acclimating and placing a Ph probe in the pail I dont see any significant rise in ph.NH3/4 are closely enough related to Ph ,imo so I dont see any issue with (NH3) ammonia toxcity.It should rise (Ph) if ammonia is becoming an issue.Just my thoughts though.
-Steve