I DID or DID NOT get AEFW after treating RB

[miwoodar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11712179#post11712179 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fishdoc11
As I have expressed several times before I believe it's increased awareness that make reefers more aware of AEFW's after red bug treatments.
For those that don't think so I think it would be easy enough to reinfect your tank with red bugs to see if it fixes the problem

Chris

I think this is likely true. Also, promiscuous trading habits would make one's tank more prone to ending up with one or both anyways. I try to keep my trading to a small group of trusted reefers...and I bring my coral frags home in condoms rather than plastic bags.

 

[fishdoc11]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11715818#post11715818 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stuckinstl
I don't think awareness would play a factor in this.


Also, AEFW's do so much damage, that I would think it'd be hard to ignore them for long.

IMO there is a difference between awareness and informed awareness. You can look at a coral all day long and if you don't know what to look for (ie you have never actually seen it)you will never see anything.

Edited to add a thought: This could be thought of as analogous to being shown a well camouflaged animal hiding in the forest. On initial inspection of the picture you can't figure out where in the heck it is no matter how hard you look. Someone then points out the animal and you think "oh yeah" how did I miss that? Hope that makes sense

I know of several instances of reefers finding out they had red bugs only after selling frags at a frag swap and others(that knew what to look for because they had already dealt with the problem) that bought the frags finding them. These were reefers who were knowledgeable and had handled the corals extensively while fragging them. And again IME AEFW's are much harder to spot than red bugs.
Like I stated previously tanks can be infected with AEFW's for a long time without the owner noticing anything but the occasional "sick" coral. Often times it takes removing the coral from the tank and looking deep down in between the branches in well shaded areas to notice the damage they do. To add to that the damage doesn't always appear to be the typical "little white round dots", it can be randomly sized and shaped or just appear to be STN.

hth, Chris

 

[Sullivmw]

I said yes, here is what happened to me:

I had a SPS tank that had been setup for about 3 years. Very good growth, superb color, nothing added for 3 years. I had red bugs since the beginning of the setup, but since I never traded with anyone, and there seemed to be no health issues, I left them. I observed them carefully to check the population size, they seemed to gain, then shrink, back and forth over the 3 years.

Over time, I decided that I needed to give some of my coral frags away. I was throwing away large pieces every few months since they were growing out of the tank, and all my sumps were full. Not wanting to ever pass along a pest, I decided to use the Interceptor in the full tank. Did about 4 treatments over a period of time and eradicated the red bugs (1-2 month period, can not remember now).

After about 3 months I was sure I was pest free, I was going to start giving my frags away, but my growth was severly reduced to the point of almost no growth. Then another month went by and colors started to fade on some, recession in certain areas, etc.

All this time, I am following all my normal routines, testing bi-weekly, continuos water changes, filter replacements, etc. I had two other tanks, not connected, not treated that were still running great (never had red bugs).

After another month the corals were really taking a major hit. Not my montis, nor the slimers, just certain acros, especially the millies. Then I found the egg masses. Treatments began, dips, etc, finally eradication after 6 months. Colors are back, growth back, etc.

Nothing was ever added to this tank in 3 years, no extra fish, no clean up crew, frags from other tanks, etc. My routine stayed exact, I log all filter changes, bi-weekly test,, bulb replacements (same bulbs), all stayed as consistent as possible. Could there have been water issues, defective test kits, bad bulbs - all possibilities that stress is causing an immune breakdown. I don't know.

My only conclusion is there must be some kind of defense mechanism that breaks down when a certain stress point is reached. I have heard of a couple people that moved their tanks, then all of the sudden major outbreak. The worms were alwys there, no doubt, but what triggers the epidemic?

 

[AeroD79]

I voted yes!

I discovered Red Bugs around 2005 and treated the tank with interceptor. I had a break out of RB twice that time.

However I still notice bite marks and colors are fading. I cant find anything! I wasnt aware of AEFW until a reefer came by and he told me to do a Iodine Dip. I was shocked! its AEFW

doomed.. i only have one acro now that survived levisomale treatments.

 

[fishdoc11]

Ok here is one of the first threads the possible connection was mentioned in that I can remember:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/s...e=25&highlight=reef temperature&pagenumber=13

Look for easttn's post about midway down on that page.

Chris

 

[Canarygirl]

thanks for posting that thread. So we could summarize from that one that

1) sudden lack of acro crab predator +
2) ecological stress on the tank

creates environment where existing AEFW can begin to grow to plague proportions.

wouldn't it be nice if there was a place to buy aquacultured acro crabs? (without the attached acro, that is...)

 

[Sullivmw]

Not sure if the acro crab is the link. I never had any, and I am sure most people that even had one did not have them in all acros affected. Still it could help slow them down?

 

[Canarygirl]

Seems like acro crabs might go after adult AEFW as well as eggs; not too many other predators of the adults....some wrasses. The big amphipods/mini shrimps in our tanks may go after the eggs as well. All of these predators tend to get wiped out with interceptor.

 

[AeroD79]

I think its ecological upset and red bugs irritate the AEFW.

 

[reefkoi]

I think acro crabs help as well. I bought around 20 acro crabs after using interceptor to re-introduce them into my acros.
IMO the practice of trading or buying 1" frags with no crabs is where all this started, I think it's plausable to say that this problem in our systems is in a way "man made" in the sense that trading "frags" is something man invented not mother nature.
It's just a theory anyway but a real possibility.
I think mother nature has ways of dealing with these problems and acro crabs could be one of them, if you use Interceptor and kill all the crabs then the existing small population of AEFW could explode because they no longer have a predator?
What do you guys think?
Chris

 

[AeroD79]

that can make sense too as I have those acro crabs before.

I think experiments are needed to bust or prove this idea that AEFW and Interceptor are linked.

 

[fishdoc11]

IMO it's immpossible to tell for ceartain what is happening.....there are just too many variables.
Stress plus lack of a predator or competitor(red bugs, acro crabs or something else....the possibilities there are many) looks like a likely scenario. IMO something that might also be likely is different types of flatworms. From reading Interceptor threads on this board the last few years this seems to happen in a small minority of the tanks treated with Interceptor........maybe people are just more aware of AEFW's now? Maybe people that have had bad luck are reluctant to post? I know we reefers are often reluctant to share our failures and eager to share our successes.
Why do some tanks treated with Interceptor that have AEFW's not show any signs of getting worse and some do?
FWIW I know AEFW's were documented by Sprung in 1999 and that was pre frag swap craze. I actually will not even think about getting any new sps that's not just a frag. A frag IMO is much easier to inspect and if removed from the base with only live tissue left there is no place for eggs to hide......and the eggs are what can get through dips and QT the easiest. I do agree that trading frags has probably spread parasites and disease and made it more of a problem but I really prefer tank raised frags. I also like being able to trade for what I want instead of having to buy it
Luckily with threads like these we can all be more educated and take precautions.
FWIW, Chris

 

[reefkoi]

I agree with you about frags being much easier to inspect and a lower risk of having predators with it also. Unfortunately when a person sees AEFW in the display tank you really don't know for sure which coral they came in on.
I think you or someone else said there are a few thousand types of flatworms so it's feasable some of us have had different species possibly.
I always say, the hoggy is so young and there is so much more to research and learn, these little buggers are just one of many things to figure out.
C

 

[AeroD79]

I saw another tank where it has both.

The colony where it has the more than 20 AEFW have no sign of RB

Another colony infested with RB only had few AEFW.

hm

 

[Sullyman]

I know of one successful in tank treatment, hoping to hear another one soon.

 

[AeroD79]

Can you summarize that treatment other than known ones like the levisomole, wrasses and dips?

 

[Tony B (UK)]

I have recently treated with Interceptor and, I have now noticed that my system has AEFW.

Imo, it's near impossible to discover if there is any link with treatments nocking out predators, as already mentioned there's so many variables.

I can not see any funding coming along (any time soon) to support a study on AEFW and their life cycle on a reef; how they fit into the ecosystem. On the reef, they exist in harmony and do not kill all acropora (as they can often do in our aquariums). Of course in nature, the AEFW are kept in check with a natural predator(s). Same for red bugs imo.

We lack the bio-diverse environment in our tanks - I wonder what the predator(s) would be? I know camelback shrimps predate on AEFW, but also on acropora too!

I have a mandarin, various wrasse including two different types of halichoeres; I can't say I've ever noticed them picking at any of my SPS.