Ich article

[a_free_bird73]

Steve,

I read the Ich article and it certainly is a nice collection of information. I have been in the marine hobby for just under a year (though have had freshwater for many years) and have run into Ich a few times since starting.

I thought I would make a few comments from my experience (which I don't claim to be a proof of anything):

- Freshwater dips whenever I transfer any fish between tanks does work (I have not seen any signs of Ich since I began employing it, where as I had constant reoccuring problems for several months before that).

- I question the value of quranteen without other measures (dips/preventative medication etc.). I have quarnteened fish for 6 weeks which showed no signs of anything and they still came up with Ich after transfer into another tank that does not contain anything!! This could be due to the fish carrying small amounts of the parasite and showing no external signs.

- I have mixed fish with Ich that have been dipped into freshwater with healthy fish and although the infected fish died within 24 hours, the other fish never showed any signs of Ich.

- If in fact freshwater dips work so effectively, then quarnteen is not necssary from a disease prespective (though are still important to observe a new fish and get them to eat in a competition free environment).

I should however mention that my reoccuring problem with Ich at the start may have been caused by another unsuspecting source and that is the LFS. It is much cheaper in Australia to buy salt water (which is typically filled from the sea) than mix fresh salt. In at least one case I suspected that one LFS I was dealing with either contaminated their water source or worse were in fact recycling their water to sell (and they had a massive Ich infestation during the same period I had problems).

So although I had no success with quarnteen and every success (touch wood) with fresh water dips, there is still a "but" and that is I may have done everything right, but the LFS let me down. I now get my own water from the sea and quarnteen the water for a month before I use it.....

 

[Steven Pro]

"Freshwater dips whenever I transfer any fish between tanks does work (I have not seen any signs of Ich since I began employing it, where as I had constant reoccuring problems for several months before that)." - I have used FW dips for quite a while and always liked them for ocassional use. The point I was trying to make was I don't advocate individuals using repeated FW dips in an attempt to cure a fish with a heavy infection.

"I question the value of quranteen without other measures (dips/preventative medication etc.). I have quarnteened fish for 6 weeks which showed no signs of anything and they still came up with Ich after transfer into another tank that does not contain anything!! This could be due to the fish carrying small amounts of the parasite and showing no external signs." - I agree, it is easy to miss the subtle signs of a mild infection. Hyposalinity or daily water changes as a prophylactic is a good protocol when quarantining fish.

"I have mixed fish with Ich that have been dipped into freshwater with healthy fish and although the infected fish died within 24 hours, the other fish never showed any signs of Ich." - It is hard to separate natural immunity (and some luck ) from experiences such as this.

"If in fact freshwater dips work so effectively, then quarnteen is not necssary from a disease prespective (though are still important to observe a new fish and get them to eat in a competition free environment)." - I don't believe FW dips to be completely effective against Cryptocaryon/Marine Ich. I think they do help, but are not 100%, hence the need for additional QT time.

On to your discussion regarding the use of natural seawater. I agree, it can easily cause a hobbyist troubles. Many individuals and commercial operatios use it for years without problems, but it does take some work to do right. Best of luck to you!

 

[Boomer]

Some of your article is very misleading and incorrect at a quick glance, so I will only address a couple of issues for now.

Several of the references report these Quinine-based drugs as having mixed results

That's true but those you selections are the wrong choice. You should have been looking at Quinacrine Hydrochoride and Pyrimethamine or Primaquine. The importat thing here is all "antimalarial" med's need to be bioassyed. Such products where once availble form SeaChem Labs and Aquatronics. Aquatronics may still have them.

Lastly, the original preparations of Malachite Green from the 50's were made from the mineral Malachite (Dr. Shimek, pers. comm.), which contains high levels of copper. Although the compound Malachite Green does not contain copper, it is possible some aquarium preparations may contain traces of copper and could be very toxic to invertebrates


That may have been so 50 years ago but for the last 30 years it has been a heavy molceluar weight organic inorganic dye. There is no cooper.

Synonyms:
Acryl Brilliant Green; Aniline Green; China Green; Fast Green;
Victoria Green, Malacite Green Oxalate others adn is p,p-benzylideneis-N,N-dimethyl aniline

Forumal

(C23H25N2)2 ; 3C2H2O4


Methylene blue is a copper based anti-microbial dye

Where did you get that from, it is not cooper based at all. It is a light molceular weight organic inorganic dye. It is sometimes recomended to add Cu with it. I dont' know of a single company that has cooper added to it.

Molecular formula: C16H18ClN3S ; 3H20

Synonyms: 3,7-bis(dimethylamino)phenothiazin-5-ium chloride, basic blue 9, calcozine blue ZF, external blue 1, methylene blue BX, methylene blue USP, methylthionine chloride, numerous other non-systematic names

The least tolerant fish are wrasses, lionfish, pufferfish, drumfish, hi-hats, jackknives, firefish

I disagree, as the least tolerant are Angles and Butterflys, they roll over on their side and almost shut down, if you don't keep "hand-moving" them. Linofish almost seem to not be affected at all by the dip. But I do agree dips are about useless


Ref

Sigma Chemical Company: Biochemicals, Organic Compounds for Reasearch and Diagnostic Reagents



Handbook of Drugs and Chemicals used in the Treatment of Fish Diseases; A Manual of Fish Pharmacology and Materia Medica;
*Neslon Herwig, Curator of Fish, Huston Zoologolical Gardens; Louis Garibaldi, Curator Departments Director , New England Aquarium and RE Wolke, D.V.M, Comparative Pathologists, U of RI



Treatment of Exotic Marine Fish Disease;
*Edward Kingsford, M.D. Pathologist



Marine Fish: The Recogniton and Treatment of Diseases
*Robert Clifton .M.D. Pathologist



Fish Diseases: Diagnosis and Treatment
*Edward J. Noga Professor of Aquatic Medicine, Dept. of Comapanion Animals and Speical Species Medicine, NC Sate


Fish Medicine
*M.K. Stoskopf, D.V.M., ph. D. Head Department of Companion Animal and Special Speciers Medicine, College of Vet Med., NC State

 

[Steven Pro]

Regarding Quinine-based therapies, I specifically mentioned Quinine Hydrochloride and Chloroquine Diphosphate and then referred back to them by stating, "Several of the references report THESE Quinine-based drugs as having mixed results, and I agree." I did not investigate any others as I have never seen them and had no practical experience with them. That is why I added the disclaimer, "While I have attempted to cover the entire range of options, there are likely a few that I have missed ..."

As for Malachite Green, I state quite clearly that the compound Malachite Green does not contain any copper, but that some aquarium preparations may.

I am not sure where the statement that Methylene Blue is copper based came from. A quick search of Yahoo yielded this http://omlc.ogi.edu/spectra/mb/ showing no copper in the compound. I am going to have to dig through my notes to find when and why I inserted that passage.

For dipping, we have had vastily different experiences. I have never had any trouble with Angels or Butterflyfish, but have with Lionfish.

 

[Boomer]

Hi Steve

To prepare a proper freshwater dip, take either dechlorinated tap water or demineralized water (RO or DI), aerate for an hour to maximize dissolved oxygen, heat to match the temperature of the dip water to that of the tank water, and then add buffering compounds to match the freshwater pH to your saltwater pH.

I'm glad you mentioned all this, as using just RO/DI water as is, would be an issue, especially in its ability to absorb CO2 and crash the pH by just adding fish

Although the compound Malachite Green does not contain copper, it is possible some aquarium preparations may contain traces of copper and could be very toxic to invertebrates (Dr. Shimek, pers. comm.).

I state quite clearly that the compound Malachite Green does not contain any copper, but that some aquarium preparations may.

Then such an example should be given and I don't know of any. Many things added to a tank have traces of CU+. But this seems to indicate there is enough there to be toxic and that is not so. Some additional info on MG for you. It is easily broken down by light, so lights need to be off and should only be used in a bare bottom tank, as it is readily adsorbed by calcareous substances.

I can say that the Quinine Hydrochloride and Malachite Green preparation is fairly invertebrate safe. Although I have never used it in a full-blown reef tank, I have used it in the presence of motile invertebrates (various shrimps and crabs), liverock, and livesand (along with the various hitchhikers; amphipods, copepods, small feather dusters, sponges, chitons, etc.) with little to no discernable adverse reactions

We would never want to put it a reef tank. Motile inverts, I agree but not corals or anemones. Most Quinine based drugs, at therapeutic levels, will cause tissue disintegration, usually starting at the tips of the tentacles



I cannot say that this is definitive proof, but it does show some promise.

The major drawback to the use of ozone is the potential to overdose and kill everything in the system. Ozone must be administered using a monitor/controller unit. Also, the effluent of the water and air should be run through activated carbon to ensure that any residual ozone is neutralized

It is not the ozone one needs to worry about, as its half-life in seawater is very, very short and ozone would be very, very difficult to get to toxic levels, not that is impossible. The killer is the residual ozone by-products/ secondary oxidants, which is the reason behind the GAC and 99 % of that is;

O2 + Br- --> OBr- and it is the hypobromite we need to get out of the wate, which is quite toxic

For future ref Steve see;

FAMA, Nov. 1991

Ozone Kienetics in Seawater by Frank A. Steslow

For dipping, we have had vastly different experiences. I have never had any trouble with Angels or Butterflyfish, but have with Lionfish.

I wonder why that is that we are the opposite

First garlic, now ginger

What will they come up with next :lol:

All in all Steve this 2 part article was a nice piece and you brought out info not known to many and dispelled some of the myths

You should also seek out a copy of

Disease of Fishes; Book 5 Enviromental Stress and Fish Diseases
*Gary A.Wedemyer, Fred P.Meyer and Lynwood Smith

Textbook of Fish Disease
* D. A. Conroy and R. L. Herman, Translated from Erwin Amlacher

Pathobiology of Marine and Estuarine Organisms
* John A.Couch and John W. Fournie

 

[Steven Pro]

That entire paragraph on Malachite Green was added in during the review/editing process at the behest of Dr. Shimek. That is why so much of it is referenced to him by personal communication. I did not get a chance to read too in depth regarding its use, but I will definitely look into some of those references for it. I think I remember seeing in Noga's "Fish Disease" that it was oxidized by light, but don't recall mention of absorption by calcareous substances. Thanks for the heads up!

I wholeheartedly agree about not using Quinine-based drugs (or any kind of treatment for that matter) in a display.

Thanks for all the additional references! I have Noga's "Fish Disease" and Stoskopf's "Fish Medicine." Are there specifics pages or topics of interest or were you just suggesting them as additional reading material?

 

[Boomer]

Are there specifics pages or topics of interest or were you just suggesting them as additional reading material?

I know you had Noga's book but not Stoskopf's. I listed all of those refs in case you haven't seen or heard of them, they are all nice books. I tried to leave out the ones you already had in the article. Amalcher and Wedemyer have a wealth of info., even though the books are old. Amlacher even shows what happens to the blood elements in some diseased vs non-diseased fish. It was Amlacher that developed the technique of moving "IcK'd" fish from one tank to the next without treatment, especially during the very, very short cycle stage ( 33-48 hours and I have seen as short as 24 hrs in marine fish) where the ick don't go through a "benthic stage" but just reinfect fish direct from the water. I think this was brough up in your part 1.There is also a very long stage, up to 3-4 weeks, where the parasites are accidental knocked off the fish and go through a very slow benthic cellular reproduction stage with a greatly reduced number of Tomites emerging.

 

[JBarnes]

Steve, appreciate the time you spent combining all the data into a set of articles. I've been the hobby for more than 20 years and my expierence has been that ich is only a issue when adding new fish to an established tank.

With a FOWLR I have used hypo-salinty to treat the entire display tank due to lack of space to house all the fish in a quarantine tank. I remove the live plants and any inverts to a isolation tank and treat the display tank. The coraline algae etc. is not harmed by the hypo-salinty.

With my reef tank I simply made the decision to give the corals top priority, if I get an Ich outbreak in that tank and can not catch the fish then I let nature take its course. I do think that tearing your tank apart to catch 6 fish that represent less than 5% of your total livestock investment is not worth the effort.

Thanks for your article.

 

[Steven Pro]

"The coraline algae etc. is not harmed by the hypo-salinty." - This is a very interesting observation. Might I ask, what do you consider hyposalinity? Some people lower than salinity to 1.018 or so, while a true treatment level is about ~1.010. I just want to be sure we are both on the same page.

 

[JBarnes]

I take it down to 10 for 30 days and I haven't noticed significant die off. The macros die off if I don't remove them. But, in a FOWLR with a bunch of tangs etc. I really don't have that much coraline like you get in a reef tank. I've never used hypo on rock with heavy coraline out of my reef tank.

 

[ATJ]

It was Amlacher that developed the technique of moving "IcK'd" fish from one tank to the next without treatment, especially during the very, very short cycle stage ( 33-48 hours and I have seen as short as 24 hrs in marine fish) where the ick don't go through a "benthic stage" but just reinfect fish direct from the water.

Boomer,
I am very interested in more information on this "very short cycle". I have numerous papers by different authors who studied C. irritans in great detail and not one of them mentions or even hints at such a short cycle.

When was the Amlacher book written? It is odd that even some of the most recent work on C. irritans don't reference it.

How long do the trophonts stay on the fish? If there are no tomonts, where does reproduction occur and how?

 

[Boomer]

ATC

It is odd that even some of the most recent work on C. irritans don't reference it.

The info I posted was not for C. irritans but I would assume it would apply...see below. All though they are not the same (FW Ick) I see little dif in their life cycle,if any at all.


I agree, as none of my recent books FW or SW mention any of these ref.

As has often been stated these parasites have a very complex life-cycle, of stages both on the fish and the environment.

How long do the trophonts stay on the fish? If there are no tomonts, where does reproduction occur and how?

He really doesn't get into it that much but there are exceptions, one being low O2. It is his Figure 131, which shows two fish, one above the other. The top fish has a cycle that shows the "ick" progressing on the fish to adulthood tomont, falling off the fish, going through a short asexual reproduction in the water with reduced tomites re-infecting the same fish and the other fish below it. At the same time, the cycle shows the same adult falling to the bottom, going through normal benthic phase with the tomites re-infecting the lower fish and top fish. I also had some info many years ago, though it was Amlacher, where it stated that if young trophonts fell or where knocked off the fish the can still survive. They fall to the bottom and go through a long repro and division stage that can last a few weeks ( I recall 21 days or so), with tomites re-emerging to infect the fish but at a much reduced number of tomites, where they must then go through a complete "normal full cycle".

Amlacher states that the "cyst" (tomont) can go through asexual reproduction in as little as 1 hr and states that the parasites are usually on the fish for 1-3 weeks. He also states that unattached parasites can divide in the water. He further states that the tomite range can be form 20-1000 tomites from a single cysts. Other info was at a pH of 5.5 or lower the benthic cyst does not survive but the ick on the fish seem to still be able to survive even a pH 5


The 33-48 hrs I gave was incorrect .That was the time to find a host fish

I have witnessed on one occasion one of my Maine fishwhich had "ick". I moved it to a QT . The fish end-up getting very infected in the QT. I took notice that at times the fish had no ick and at other times it was loaded. This was a very, very short time. My observations showed the fish was loaded at 11: PM and by 12:00 Am there where no visible ick. At about 10:00 AM, still now ick but at 11:00 AM he was loaded again. I watched this for 4 days. I then took the fish out at 2:00 Am on the 5th day and moved him to a new tank. All I did was just a quich rinse in FW. The ick never came back in the other QT. Normally, once the cycle starts the fish almost always have very visible ick at any time. Sometimes allot and at other time just a few, as the cycle is a little different, meaning shorter or longer, with eack "Ick" on the fish or bottom but not none on the fish, at least as far as observation goes. I have never seen this before and I haven't seen it since. I found this all rather odd and strange until I got the book and it showed a non-benthic stage. Any time I have see either FW or SW Ick it has followed the expected course, such as those given in any general text, such a Noga

Textbook of Fish Disease by Erwin Amlacher, translated from German by D.A. Conroy & R. L. Herman 1970.

Amalcher often ref.

Wagner, G. : "Der Entwicklungszyklus von Ichtyophrthirus multifiliss Fouquet und der Einfuss physikalischer und chemischer Aussenfaktoren", Z. Fisch., N. F., 9, 1960

meaning translated

The development cycle of Ichtyophrthirus multifiliss Fouquet and that bound more physically and more chemically outside factors

 

[ATJ]

The info I posted was not for C. irritans but I would assume it would apply...see below. All though they are not the same (FW Ick) I see little dif in their life cycle,if any at all.

Boomer,

While there appears to be superficial similarity between the life cycles of C. irritants and I. multifiliis, they are two distinct organisms and one should not assume that the strategy of one will be the strategy of the other. Recent work by Wright and Colorni (2002) found that without question the two parasites are taxonomically distinct. The differences were so great that C. irritans has been assigned to a different class from I. multifiliis.

There has been much research into the life cycle of C. irritans and not one author out of all the papers I have read has described anything other than the four phase life cycle. You would think if there was some form of direct development that at least one of the authors would have observed it.

 

[Boomer]

double post

 

[Boomer]

While there appears to be superficial similarity between the life cycles of C. irritants and I. multifiliis, they are two distinct organisms

I agree, this is brought out in Noga also

There has been much research into the life cycle of C. irritans and not one author out of all the papers I have read has described anything other than the four phase life cycle.

I agree also, as I stated above, but that doesn't mean they haven't missed something. One of my interests has always been fish diseases and their treatment. And you or they must ask themselves the question under what conditions did they do the study in relationship to a closed artificial environment such as an aquarium.

I have read has described anything other than the four phase life cycle.

And if you looked at data, as I stated, you will not find any info of the same for I. multifiliis other than the data from Amlacher and Wagner, as far I can tell, where there is a discussion of the non-benthic cycle and repro/div takes place in the water with no bottom resting stage. All of the data from Amlacher comes fro Wagner


Maybe you could write one of these gus and ask them the question, "is it possible and have you read Wagner or Amlacher" and an explanation for my observation. Also the question "is it possible for a repro /div stage to take place right on the fish, where the cyst could fall to the water and release tomites"

D. A. Conroy, who translated Amalcher work is cited in Noga but not on this book. And Amlacher is a well known German fish pathologist disease expert who as written at least 20 paper in prof journals. Despite all that there is not a single cite of him in Noga or most disease books

 

[TerryB]

I have to agree with ATJ. I think that there is some confusion between saltwater ich and freshwater ick. I am just now putting the last touches on a series of articles about Cryptocaryon irritans that is 10,000 words long.

You may be surprised to find that there was one report of an isolate that appeared to harbor some tomonts in the gills. This has not been confirmed by anyone else nor has it been found in any of the other strains of C. irritans. There are some variations in size, numbers, time frame, temperature and salinity tolerance between different variants of the parasite. However, I haven't seen any differences that I think are radical enough to seperate them into different species altogether.
Terry B

 

[Boomer]

I have to agree with ATJ. I think that there is some confusion between saltwater ich and freshwater ick.

Yes, there is but I'm not ?

You may be surprised to find that there was one report of an isolate that appeared to harbor some tomonts in the gills

I'm not suprised at all and you should know that, I and DefLizard mentioned this to you before.

However, I haven't seen any differences that I think are radical enough to seperate them into different species altogether.

Well, based on what ATC has posted this would not be the case if

Recent work by Wright and Colorni (2002) found that without question the two parasites are taxonomically distinct. The differences were so great that C. irritans has been assigned to a different class from I. multifiliis

It is called Convergent Evolution

 

[Geepers Creepers]

With my reef tank I simply made the decision to give the corals top priority, if I get an Ich outbreak in that tank and can not catch the fish then I let nature take its course. I do think that tearing your tank apart to catch 6 fish that represent less than 5% of your total livestock investment is not worth the effort.

This is the approach I have taken, a natural approach. I keep the fish as healthy as I can with diet and donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t worry about ich. All the fish I have, had ich when introduced into the display and recovered. The fish in the display are not effected by the ich unless they are fighting with the new arrival. After the initial stress is over the fish never show signs of ich again. They may get one or two that I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t see.
These are the fish I have and the length of time I have had them.
Hippo tang 3 years, Blond Naso over 1 year, Clown tang, 1 year, Yellow tang 3 years, two clown fish 4 years, six line wrasse 5 years, all never show signs of ich.
I know that quarantine is important for diseases, but I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t think that ich is the real threat. I think ich is something fish have evolved to cope with in their own way. Fish die because of illness that brings on the ich, the parasites take advantage of the situation. This may not be the correct way of thinking. This is just what I have found in my aquarium, not with a scientific controlled study.

I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t want to cause waves.

 

[ATJ]

Boomer,

Terry is talking about multiple species or strains of Cryptocaryon rather than the difference between Cryptocaryon and Ichthyophthirius.

 

[ATJ]

I know that quarantine is important for diseases, but I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t think that ich is the real threat. I think ich is something fish have evolved to cope with in their own way. Fish die because of illness that brings on the ich, the parasites take advantage of the situation.

Marine fish evolved in the oceans and not in aquariums. In the oceans they are literally swimming in billions upon billions of litres of water and "Ich" infections are both uncommon and extremely mild when they occur. In fact, the rare infection is so mild that few fish acquire an immunity to it. In the confines of an aquarium, parasite numbers grow very quickly (10 to 200 times per cycle) and are able to infect a small number of fish with relative ease.

Fish die as a direct result of infection by the parasite. It attaches to their skin causing problems with osmoregulation and their gills severely limiting their ability to take up oxygen from the water. In the majority of deaths caused by "Ich", the fish basically suffocate. Healthy fish are just as susceptible to infection as unhealthy ones due to the sheer numbers of parasites.

It has been demonstrated that fish are able to acquire an immunity to "Ich", unfortunately not all fish are able to develop the immunity fast enough to prevent death.

I am pleased for you and your fish that "Ich" has not been a problem but unfortunately your experience is not common to all aquarists.