importance of nutrient import with ulns's

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I add an excess of calcium hydroxide, and the excess settles to the bottom. It is to keep up the tank pH as carbon dosing drives down pH. The pH is similar to limewater (12's, probably), but it is much more potent in terms of calcium and alkalinity. The pH of vinegar is in the mid 2's.

Many organic carbon sources seem OK, and acetic acid is fine if you have some that is adequately pure. Vinegar is cheap, and the water does not concern me. It may even be easier to spread out the dose a bit diluted like this. I spread it out over about 11 hours.

 

[Reefer08]

I add an excess of calcium hydroxide, and the excess settles to the bottom. It is to keep up the tank pH as carbon dosing drives down pH. The pH is similar to limewater (12's, probably), but it is much more potent in terms of calcium and alkalinity. The pH of vinegar is in the mid 2's.

Many organic carbon sources seem OK, and acetic acid is fine if you have some that is adequately pure. Vinegar is cheap, and the water does not concern me. It may even be easier to spread out the dose a bit diluted like this. I spread it out over about 11 hours.

Randy do you use a peristaltic doser to dose the vinegar? I had no idea the pH of vinegar was at 2! Now I will add some kalkwasser to the vinegar to raise its pH, thank you!!

 

[ReefTECK]

here's my list:
b-balance
sponge power
k+
pohls xtra
jod complex
coral snow
zeofood7
coral vitalizer

...hope that helps :rollface:

I know that ZeoVit and Korallin Zurich do not release the information about specifically what is in their products, but I have made some attempts to dispel what functions each of these additives and complexes do. Let me attempt to summarize my understanding.

-k+...obvious one probably potassium iodine?
-coral snow and zeofood: a healthy variety of concentrated food complexes that can potentially be replaced with oyster eggs, cyclopeeze, and (for me) Kent Marine Chromaplex.

I also use microbacter 7 from bright wells to replace zeostart (although I'm finishing the last of my zeostart now)

And I'm also using Phols Xtra (although admittedly I've not dispelled what the heck is in that stuff), and VVC for my carbon source.

What are these other additives aimed at? b-balance, coral vitilizer, sponge power, jod complex.

I've seen alot of wonderful zeovit tanks but I hate the system being so vauge and mysterious. I like to know what I'm putting in my tank, or at least why, and what to expect.

I would love to get some answers, or ideas from you zeoheads!

 

[dieselgrk]

this would be my best guess as to what each product is, but im not certain:

-ZEOstart: vodka and sugar
-ZEOfood: vinigar
-ZEObak: bacteria similar to Biodigest and MB7
-sponge power: silicate
-Coral Snow: kalkwasser
-B-Balance and Xtra: various trace elements, metals, and minerals similar to whats found in the balling method
Jod Complex: iodide
coral vitalizer: some sort of coral food, perhaps phytoplankton, not sure!

 

[Reefer08]

Sponge Power = silicate? Thats interesting. Why would anyone wanna dose silicates? I thought thats something we try hard to remove because it causes algae.

 

[stanlalee]

Sponge Power = silicate? Thats interesting. Why would anyone wanna dose silicates? I thought thats something we try hard to remove because it causes algae.

google key words sponges silicate and growth

These sponges and their spicules grow by putting on concentric layers of silica material on a seasonal basis, rather like tree rings. The concentrations of certain chemicals in the surrounding water, and the growth rate of the sponge itself, are archived in the silica deposited. The information in each layer of silica can be used to deduce environmental conditions on a range of scales: years, decades and centuries

For building a skeleton, two species of silicate (silicic acid) are absorbed by the sponge from the environment. Silicate is transferred over the diffusive boundary layer around the sponge and locally silicate is depleted. When there is a constant supply of silicate from the environment and the silicate is continuously being absorbed, silicate gradients will emerge in the direct neighbourhood of the sponge

most of us arent interested in growing sponges

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have dosed silicate for many years. I describe why and how with a cheap commercial material here:

Silica in a Reef Tank
http://advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2003/feature.htm

FWIW, a potassium supplement (intended to boost potassium) would not be potassium iodide as you would super overdose iodine to add even 1 ppm of potassium that way. An optimal K+ supplement would be potassium chloride or sulfate (or both).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy do you use a peristaltic doser to dose the vinegar?

yes, I use a BRS 1.1 ml/min doser.

 

[dieselgrk]

FWIW, a potassium supplement (intended to boost potassium) would not be potassium iodide as you would super overdose iodine to add even 1 ppm of potassium that way. An optimal K+ supplement would be potassium chloride or sulfate (or both).

jod complex (iodide) is used it very small doses: 1 drop per 25 gallons of water per day maximum. the iodide is intended to enhance the blue color in acropora species. i have just started using this product a month ago and have not noticed a change in my blue acroporas.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was commenting in relation to the statement by reefteck:

"-k+...obvious one probably potassium iodine?"

 

[Shadowramy]

They do have K+ and K+ strong, probably just different saturation levels of potassium.

I think Spur2 and Xtra are basically low levels of metals and minerals (including copper). Both Spur2 and Xtra seem to have some dramatic effects on color and have extreme warnings about overdosing (this is more so with Spur2 but I don’t think anyone really uses it any more. Xtra is a 'calmed down' version of Spur2.) This is why I think they contain low levels of metals, if it said 'contains low levels of copper' on the bottle I dont think you would get anyone to dare put it in their tanks.

Zeobak is most likely a cultured bacteria that works best with whatever is in Start2. Start2 smells like an egg coloring kits (vinegar).

I have always understood zeovit in different phases that are separate but progressive. 1.) Carbon dosing, 2) growing bacteria that consumes the carbon and 3) growth, color and polyp extension. I think a big problem is that people may want to do step 3 before 1 and 2 and just add nutrients to their tank – this is why you hear a lot of issues of cyano in new zeo tanks. Of course these steps can be done without zeo through good skimming and frequent water changes. I have a good friend that has a beautiful system. He uses a massive skimmer and does very frequent, very large water changes and supplements nothing.

The Start2 is the carbon dosing part (aka some type of vodka method), the zeolites and zeobak are ways to grow the bacteria that feeds on the carbon (I am assuming this can occur automatically in closed system but zeo supplies these to maybe to ‘jumpstart’ the process). Completely separate are all the 'other' additives. The 'other' additives are more for polyp extension, grown and color. That why there is basic 4 (which is really 3; bak, zeolites and Start2, I don’t think anyone really uses the zeofood anymore).

So now basically what I am getting is the zeolites are a place to grow these carbon eating bacteria and that this place ‘outside’ of the main display, something like a macro fuge. Zeolites do have some initial effect of ‘removing’ (or replacing) ammonia but this is very short term and their main purpose would be as a media for the bacteria. Pumping the reactor basically unclogs some of the pores in the rocks and releases bacteria and plankton into the main system??

Again I ask, wouldn’t just putting some pieces of liverock in a zeovit reactor accomplish the same thing?

Thanks Randy for all the info, this is great!!

 

[dieselgrk]

Again I ask, wouldn’t just putting some pieces of liverock in a zeovit reactor accomplish the same thing?
Thanks Randy for all the info, this is great!!

i believe Randy suggested, and i am now wondering myself, if activated carbon plays the same role as a media for bacteria to grow on as does zeolites? i have gathered through the valuable information presented on this thread (thank you Randy ) that zeolites don't play the role in which they are marketed to (in the presents of saltwater): remove ammonia. however i am convinced that they do play some positive role. if in fact the zeolites role is simply to provide a valuable breeding ground for bacteria to grown on, and the same breeding ground can be achieved with activated carbon, then perhaps we are better off without zeolites. this way we will not have to compensate as much for the zeolites removal of potassium, strontium, calcium, magnesium and iron????

Randy, what do you think?

i'm thinking of changing things up a little and trying something new!
in 4 weeks from now when im due for a zeolite exchange. im thinking i will due without zeolites and instead run activated carbon and rowaphos in mesh bags in my reactor. i will treat them the same as zeolites and dose zeobak daily for 14 days following the new carbon and rowaphos as well as pump the reactor 2-3 times daily. be interesting to see what happens!

 

[ReefTECK]

Okay, thanks for the link Randy; "Visions of a reef tank covered with diatoms so thick that you can’t see through the glass come to mind." Yeah, that was pretty much my first impression! lol

Also thanks for the note on potassium and potassium iodine.

this would be my best guess as to what each product is, but im not certain:

-ZEOstart: vodka and sugar
-ZEOfood: vinigar
-ZEObak: bacteria similar to Biodigest and MB7
-sponge power: silicate
-Coral Snow: kalkwasser
-B-Balance and Xtra: various trace elements, metals, and minerals similar to whats found in the balling method
Jod Complex: iodide
coral vitalizer: some sort of coral food, perhaps phytoplankton, not sure!

It would seem from this that the only elements I'm really missing in my domestic makeshift blend of the zeovit system is; iodine, silicate, and potassium.

I am going to look more into this "balling method"

Also, I want to question. What are the prerequisits for a ULNS, it seems like people are quoting PO4 levels to <0.04ppm and nitrates from 2-7ppm. Don't many of us achieve this through GFO and water changes anyways?

Additionally, I know that K is commonly tested in zeo systems, but surely you're not testing silica? Testing supplies for silica that I have seen are prohibitively expensive.

Finally, and I see that a few previous posts have hit on this; the zeolites, I'm not using any sort of zeolitic media for growing bacteria, I think that yes, passive GAC has been indicated as a substrate for the addition of these bacteria as well.

But surely dosing microbacter or zeobak is not useless without zeolites? Rock and sand surely provide adequate substrate for these as well, the only difference I can discern is that perhaps isn't there some type of flow things going on with a zeovit reactor? You turn the flow on for a while, then off, then on for a while. Is this just enhancing the environment for anaerobic bacteria? Again the deep sub surfaces of live rock provide this as well don't they?

 

[Shadowramy]

The thing is I can definetly tell a difference after about 6-8 week in coral colors even when running carbon in a reactor, I change out the zeolites and they get their color back.

It would be intereseting to try some liverock in the chamber, but pumping might breakup the LR so maybe chuncks of tonga branch rock might be worth a try.

I think on my next change out I will try half zeolites and half live rock and see what happens. If I leave about 10% of the old zeolites mixed with half new zeolites and half LR it should seed the LR.

As far as flow, I think that has more to do with people who have high nutrients not to shock the corals by removing N and P to fast and causing RTN.

 

[Reefer08]

most of us arent interested in growing sponges

Thanks for the information, I now have some reading up to do regarding silicates!

Personally I am very interested in growing sponges. I have a large cryptic zone in my sump with tons of sponges that are growing very good in complete darkness, its just another form of filtration that I rely on for my nutrient export.

 

[Reefer08]

i believe Randy suggested, and i am now wondering myself, if activated carbon plays the same role as a media for bacteria to grow on as does zeolites? i have gathered through the valuable information presented on this thread (thank you Randy ) that zeolites don't play the role in which they are marketed to (in the presents of saltwater): remove ammonia. however i am convinced that they do play some positive role. if in fact the zeolites role is simply to provide a valuable breeding ground for bacteria to grown on, and the same breeding ground can be achieved with activated carbon, then perhaps we are better off without zeolites. this way we will not have to compensate as much for the zeolites removal of potassium, strontium, calcium, magnesium and iron????

Randy, what do you think?

i'm thinking of changing things up a little and trying something new!
in 4 weeks from now when im due for a zeolite exchange. im thinking i will due without zeolites and instead run activated carbon and rowaphos in mesh bags in my reactor. i will treat them the same as zeolites and dose zeobak daily for 14 days following the new carbon and rowaphos as well as pump the reactor 2-3 times daily. be interesting to see what happens!

Bacteria will gather on the GAC/GFO but I do not see it as a reason to replace the zeolites with it. I don't think bacteria will acculumate as much on gac/gfo as it will on zeolites. Personally I run mine in a mesh bag and will shake the bag every few days to make sure no detritus settles in the bag.

The purpose of running the zeolites is to supposedly remove ammonia/ammonium (Nh4 & Nh3) prior to it breaking down into nitrates by allowing "mulm" to gather upon the rocks. But this theory of removing ammonia/ammonium is dispelled by the scientific community as being false.


So my question for Randy is, do corals actually feed upon the bacteria that acculumates upon these zeolites? Ive always had my doubts that the polyps will consume the mulm.

 

[StrategicReef]

I decreased carbon source (vodka/vinegar whatever) dosage by half and cut back my supplements required by at least half. Colors are back, works great.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So my question for Randy is, do corals actually feed upon the bacteria that acculumates upon these zeolites? Ive always had my doubts that the polyps will consume the mulm.

I do not personally know if specific corals and other creatures (sponges, etc) in the tank consume the bacteria that are released, but it seems very possible to me. I certainly have seen some soft corals grow faster when dosing vinegar and vodka, so either they are consuming the organic directly or the bacteria are feeding it. I doubt the effect relates to inorganic nutrients.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

this way we will not have to compensate as much for the zeolites removal of potassium, strontium, calcium, magnesium and iron????

Randy, what do you think?

I don't think that strontium, calcium, or magnesium are appreciably removed from seawater by typical zeolites, but potassium is. Not sure on iron, but it is depleted by growing organisms, especially algae (macro and micro).

I do not know if GAC is just as good as a zeolite for growing bacteria. It may depend on the species, the type of organic dosed, etc.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Again I ask, wouldn't just putting some pieces of liverock in a zeovit reactor accomplish the same thing?

I do not know. The answer may depend on the available surface area and the surface chemistry both.


Also, I want to question. What are the prerequisits for a ULNS, it seems like people are quoting PO4 levels to <0.04ppm and nitrates from 2-7ppm. Don't many of us achieve this through GFO and water changes anyways?

I think the term means different things to different people. To many it means no detectable phosphate or nitrate, closer to what is in the ocean.

Additionally, I know that K is commonly tested in zeo systems, but surely you're not testing silica? Testing supplies for silica that I have seen are prohibitively expensive.

I have a test kit. Not too expensive. But i do not test because I know any silicate I dose is rapidly depleted, so numbers would essentially be zero in less than a week.