Kalkwasser vs Calcium reactor

[nmbeg]

Ok, so I am still new to this hobby, getting my 125 up and established.

I just finised Sprung's "Reef Notes" which is an excellent series, and he talks a lot about Kalwasser to mainatin calcium and alkalinity.

The problem is that the book is somewhat outdated, over 10 years old.

My question is this... do we still use kalkwasser, or is a Calcium Reactor the new trend? Do the two even accomplish the same things (like high calc, high alkalinity, stable pH?)

thanks

ps. see my tank here.

 

[demonsp]

These things arent needed right away and only confuse the basic setup. With such low calcium load water changes alone will do.Then readings like PH and Alk tend to stay off while the tank matures. And if you monitor regularly then whene you see them go in the normal range and stay then you know your one step away from total addiction. By this time you stock mightbe in the next step of suppliments like calcium. Kalk is still used and a drip would be fine.Just adjust by readings.

 

[Acillaton]

Nice job with rockwork! Looks good.
You can get mixes answers and yes many reefers still use a kalkwasser with great succes and calcium reactor is easiest way to get a proper calcium level in high populated reeftank. I personally dosing ESV B-ionic. Find it easy and still can manage the demand of my corals.

 

[BLKTANG]

It all depends on your specific system's need for buffering of CA,& Alk.Also it would depend on the ammount of coral,& species,ie:SPS will deplete the levels of CA much faster than leathers,& softies.If you plan on keeping an SPS dominate 125g reef then it would make sence for you to buy a CA reactor.I do plan on buying a reactor for my reef,as soon as the need increases,right now i only have to supp every 3 days,not even a drip yet,but my system is new (2 months) & still lightly stocked.

 

[rbursek]

Go to the Chem forum and post it Randy is the expert and has readen many articles on this and he will give the down loads!!!!

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

Re: Kalkwasser vs Calcium reactor

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11970388#post11970388 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by nmbeg
Ok, so I am still new to this hobby, getting my 125 up and established.

I just finised Sprung's "Reef Notes" which is an excellent series, and he talks a lot about Kalwasser to mainatin calcium and alkalinity.

The problem is that the book is somewhat outdated, over 10 years old.

My question is this... do we still use kalkwasser, or is a Calcium Reactor the new trend? Do the two even accomplish the same things (like high calc, high alkalinity, stable pH?)

thanks

ps. see my tank here.

Julian published one of my letters in 'Reef Notes'.
His advice on using kalkwasser is still good and I would recommend using it for makeup water even if you have a calcium reactor or dose a two part.

 

[nmbeg]

Oh yeah, which letter was yours?

as for using kalkwasser for makeup, is there a SIMPLIFIED article out there on how to dose it? I have read a hundred articles (including Julian's) that go into the science of it, which is nice, but how about a simple tutorial on how to set it up?

thanks for the great replies everyone....

 

[tmz]

I'll try for a simple tutorial on calcium and alkalinity dosing. Here goes.

There are 4 mainstream ways to meet a captive reef's needs for calcium and alkalinty: high calcium content salt mixes, calcium reactors, limewater dosing(more expensive and some say works better when you use the german name kalkwasser),and 2 part calcium /alkalinity additives. You may use any one ,two, three or all four to meet the needs of your particular system.

Limewater dosing results in the formation of calcium hydroxide which is a balanced calcium/alkalinity supplement. Limewater is also self purifying meaning impurities precipitate out of solution leaving only the calccium hydroxide you wan't.
The amount of lime you can dose is limited by the amount of top off you use( only 2 tspns of lime will stay in solution in a gallon of fresh water, so for example,if you top off only one gallon a day you can only dose 2tsps). The amount of limewater you can dose in any given hour is also limited by the fact that it has a very high ph (ca.12.4). This limits you to about 1 quart of fully saturated(2tsps per gal) limewater per hour per hundred gallons. Using more in that time period or less time will likely cause a ph spike in the tank and might lead to precipitation where the clacium hydroxie will fall out of solution in your tank as useless but messy calcium cabonate.
Despite these limitations it is an excellent self purifying balanced supplement which if dosed at night can also help stabilize the usual nightime ph dip that occurs when photosynthetic organisims respire since it takes up CO2.
How you dose it depends on space ,time and budget. You can mix it up in the morning and pour it in in small amounts during the day and evening. You can use a kalk reactor which is basicallly an air tight resevoir with a magnetic stirer through which top off water is pumped. You can use a gravity fed buckett or bladder with a drip feed. You can use a still resevoir such as a 30gallon trash can with a dosing pump and a timer .
My sump is in the basement and is plumbed to my display which is upstairs. In this situation I use a still resevoir( a 33 gal brute grabage can) and a liter meter3 dosing pump timed to run during the night and to cover daily top off. I refill the can once a week or so and stir in new lime manually. Degradation due to interaction with the air is virtually nil as long as fully saturated limewater is used and alittle extra lime is left at the bottom the resevoir.
Limewater by itself is not enough to meet my system's needs so I run a clacium reactor 24/7 as well. Since the calcium reactor effluent is at a ph of approximately 6.7,the two methods are very complimentary.

There are several good articles by Randy Holmes Farely in the begining of the Reef Chemistry forum which provide usefull information on limewater as well as other calcium supplementation methods/. Another good source of infromation is "The Reef Aquarium Vol 3" by Sprung and Delbeek.

Once you have a more specific idea of what you wan't to do, I'd be happy to answer additional questions and provide detail as needed.
Good Luck.

 

[nmbeg]

wow, that's great info.

I currently use a 33 gallon trash can for my makeup water, done manually about 2 gallons once a day.

I am in the process of buying an ATO (JBL brand... looks good and cheap.. any suggestions?).

so if I mix in the kalkwasser (I think I will have more success with the german name ) into the trash can and maintain it slightly supersaturated (with a ppt on the bottom), I should be ok, right?

next question... how do I know if I have enough kalk going in? by monitoring calcium level and alkanility?

one more thing... are you telling me that kalkwasser is more expensive than a calcium reactor in the long run?

 

[tmz]

Yes, the can should obviously have a tight fitting lid to miniimize interraction with the air. A film of calcium carbonate will form across the surface of the water where CO2 has been taken in. This film further seals off the rest. When restirred the film fragments and other impurites(precipitants) will settle to the slurry in the bottom. There will also be unused lime down there. The lime will go into solution up to saturation and the precipitants will continually settle out. Obviously, the precipitated material should not be dosed. It's a good idea to let it settle down after stirring for at least two hours before dosing and to have your uptake port at least a couple of inches above the slurry.If a bit gets into the tank it's not tragic,just extra sand more or less. Randy Holmes Farely did conductivity meter tests on still resevoir lime water and determined minimal loss of strength due to air interaction over 1 week's time without actual stirring. I restir at least once a week and clean out the slurry every few months.
I have no opinion on an ato. I haven't used one.The only thought I have is a caution to be sure it can't stick open and overdose. I use a dosing pump which puts in an amount that I program.

You should test cacium and alkalinity levels to determine consumption levels for your system. Some suggest using less than supersaturated levels to manage doses(eg 1 tsp per gal instead of two etc.). I just dose less overall(eg 4.5 vs 4.7 gals of superstaturated limewater) and make up the top off difference by adding extra ro water to the system.

No, I did not intend to imply a calcium reactor is less expensive in the long run. Bulk food grade lime(kalk) is easy to find( see TWo part Solutions ) in the sponsor forums.I have lots of corals and other high calcium users. Kalk(calcium hydroxide) top off alone doesn't cover consumption in my system.. In fact the calcium reactor alone doesn't either. The two together do extremely well and have ph leveling advantages.Alternatively if more calcium and or alkalinity is needed than kalk top off can provide supplemental dosing of calcium
chloride and bicarbonate(baking soda) can cover it.
Kalk does use up CO2 and can result in chronic high ph. The calcium reactor uses a CO2 injector which when used alone can result in excess CO2 and chronic low ph.
An additional note: When calcificiation occurs calcium,bicarbonate and magnesium are taken up to form skeletal mass. Calcium hydroxide contains the cacium and bicarbonate needed in balanced proportions. It contains little if any magnesium. Magnesium will deplete over time without supplements.It is not only important as a skeletal element, it also helps your water hold larger amounts of calcium and discourages precipitation thus enabling the maintanece of calcium levels. It should be tested every few months and replenished to nsw levels (1300ppm or so)

 

[sgarron]

Tom, I read that using a good calcium reactor media such as Gen-X also adds magnessium to the system. Does it add enough or would you still have to dose mag?

 

[Sk8r]

I use Mrs. Wages Pickling Lime [5.00 for 2 lbs] dumped quite inaccurately [about a pound at a time] into a 32 g Brute can/ATO reservoir, with a maxijet 1200 topoff pump throttled down to a locline hose. A piece of lighting grid just slightly larger than the bottom holds my pump out of the 'soup' down below, and it gets stirred only when I add more ro/di to the ATO.

It costs practically nothing, since I was already using the ATO, and does not glitch-up. Mrs. Wages is cheap, compared to Kent Turbo Calcium.

I do have to test for and supplement magnesium: my consumption is not huge. [54g display, 30g sump].

In my correspondence I have noted that 120g is about the upper end for relying solely on kalkwasser for supplementation...and that gets edgy, too, depending on evaporation---because, of course, an ATO only doses when evaporation calls for it; and because you cannot easily 'force' more calcium into the topoff than that 2 tsp saturation. [There is a method of doing so, involving vinegar.]

Usually when you outstrip the needs of a kalk drip, a calcium reactor alone will do it; but some people run kalk AS WELL AS a calcium reactor, because of ph issues in their particular tank.

I found that calcium demand chugged along for about 3 months at 1/2 tsp a day for my stony tank, when first set up, then soared to 2 tsp a day of Kent Turbo Calcium all in one week. WHen corals start to grow, they start sucking up calcium bigtime, and in my tank, they all hit the same point together. Maybe one touches off the other, who knows? Or it was just tank conditions.

Mistakes [massive overdoses/topoff accidents] are pretty common with new kalk users, but rarely do any damage. What happens---the ph soars for a few hours, and then starts to drop. You can dose a little bar soda water to hurry that drop along, but you don't want to overdo it, or you can overshoot the dose and have trouble in the other direction. Overdose with a calcium reactor seems to be more serious.

 

[madmax7774]

A simple way to think of it:
A calcium reactor tends to provide more alkalinity for your tank. A kalkwasser tends to provide more calcium. You need to add things in a balanced fashion. Cheapest way is to use randy holmes farley's 2 part recipe and manaul dosing for a smaller setup. Larger setups will require more and will need a lot more dosing or some sort of system automation. If you are willing to do manual daily dosing you can get by with a couple of test kits, and $50 worth of materials to mix up your own, and it will last over a year. If you want to be 100% automatic, then you want both a calcium reactor and a kalkwasser and some monitoring / controllers. now your talking well over $1400 to do it right. it really comes down to your needs versus how much you are willing to spend.
i would start off with manual dosing and see how it goes. Graduate upward from there once you learn your tanks needs.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11973880#post11973880 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by madmax7774
A simple way to think of it:
A calcium reactor tends to provide more alkalinity for your tank. A kalkwasser tends to provide more calcium.

since calcium reactors and kalkwasser both supplement calcium and alkalinity evenly this isn't a good way to think of them

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11971637#post11971637 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by nmbeg
Oh yeah, which letter was yours?

I don't have those books but I think my letter was in vol. 4

I used my same name

 

[tmz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11977721#post11977721 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gary Majchrzak
since calcium reactors and kalkwasser both supplement calcium and alkalinity evenly this isn't a good way to think of them



I don't have those books but I think my letter was in vol. 4

I used my same name

Thankyou Gary,didn't exactly know how to straighten that one out.

mad max .Think of it this way only calcium chloride and bicarbonate(two part) requires two parts for balanced dosing of calcium and alkalinity. Calcium reactor media and calcium hydroxide(kalk) each contain both calcium and alkaliniity in balanced proportions

 

[tmz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11973393#post11973393 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sgarron
Tom, I read that using a good calcium reactor media such as Gen-X also adds magnessium to the system. Does it add enough or would you still have to dose mag?

I don't know that product. Magnesium depletion really depends for the most part on consumption by corals and that will vary from reef to reeef. I use a salt mix with realatively high magnesium and almost never need to supplement even with high consumption.. I do test magnesium every month or so.