Lets get this dialed in, I have been patient enough

[djkms]

Hello all,

I am currently struggling with my 225 gallon SPS system. It started out with brown corals, now they are brown but bleaching out and I am losing colonies I have had for over 2 years. I will try to be as descriptive as possible with the chain of events with my system, sorry in advance for the long post.

I started out with a 125 gallon mixed reef which was almost 2 years old before I moved and tore it down. Here is a pic before being tore down

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/Dr_digitaL/IMG_3846.jpg

The system was lit by AI SOL blues only for the 2 years it was up. I maintained the following parameters steady:
KH 8-9 / CA 420 / PO4 .02-.04 / NO3 2-5 / PH 8.1-8.3 / Temp 78-80 / 1.026

I was happy with the growth but the color of my SPS just wasn't as great as I wanted so I decided to switch to MH/t5

I have a buddy who owns a maintenance company so he helped me tear down the 125 when I moved (almost a year ago). We got the tank tore down in a couple hours and we rebuilt it in his shop and that's where it sat for a couple months until I settled into my new place. While in his shop the issues began. Honestly, it was rather neglected there. A couple times I was bad about refilling the 2 part containers so there was alk spikes, a couple temp spikes (2-3 degree daily change) and some of my corals were placed in bad spots and didn't get enough flow so they browned. On top of this I also changed out my SOL Blues and had put 3 250w radiums over the tank. I didnt lose any corals during this time but about half of my SPS browned out.

Almost exactly 8 months ago I finally settled into my new house and got the ball rolling on getting the system into the new house. I upgraded the tank to a 225 gallon and added about 75lbs more cured live rock from my buddies shop. We used as much water from the 125 as possible and the new water was matched to the old to minimize shock. The 125 was broken down and put into the 225 within hours. No losses but still a lot of brown corals.

I have kept my parameters stable without fluctuation since the 225 was setup. I maintained the following parameters for about 5 months before changing things up:
KH 8-9 / CA 420 / PO4 .02-.04 / NO3 2-5 / PH 8.1-8.3 / Temp 78-80 / 1.026
(same as the previous system)

After 5 months I got tired of not seeing any change in my browned out corals and also got sick of fighting cyano. My cyano problem wasnt huge but I did have to do a couple days lights out in order to combat it. So my next mission was to bottom out my nutrients in hopes to color up my corals and keep the cyano at bay. So I started to lower my nutrients (I vinegar dose) gradually until they bottomed out and started to dose amino's and trace elements. This was a bad idea because now my brown corals have started to lighten up, still brown and flesh has started to come off the corals. Mostly STN and have so far lost about 10+ corals. While bottoming out the nutrients I also gradually lowered my kH to 7.5ish (I read a great thread here in the advanced section that states lower nutrient systems should have a lower kH while higher nutrient systems should have a higher kH).

Now some corals are doing great, coloring up nice while others just look like poo. I am starting to think that once some corals brown out there is no hope for them coming back. I actually hope that is the case because by "textbook" I think I am doing everything right. The changes I have made to the system have been very gradual and I am just at wits end.

Here is a complete rundown of my system including all equipment, inhabitants, maintenance routine, what I dose, how much I dose, etc:
http://www.aquaticlog.com/aquariums/djkms/5

So now that my browned corals are bleaching I am thinking about bringing my NO3 back up to 5 and po4 to .04 over the next few weeks and fighting cyano again. Thoughts on all this?

btw I feed the tank 3 small "pinches" of NLS pellets through a auto feeder 3 times a day and 2 cubes of mysis soaked in vitachem and selcon a day. I feed Nori as well. Now I am sure some of you will say to not feed as much but for me thats not a option. I like to keep my fish vibrant, healthy and happy and will not starve them. I also have anthias that need multiple feedings.

I am also thinking that maybe my skimmer is just not pulling enough DOC out of my water which is affecting my corals health even though my NO3 and PO4 are in check?


Pictures of my current system can be found on the above link. Here is also a video I did not long ago which shows you how my corals look:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/kOO-eGlMXRE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I constantly look for pests and do not see any. I have a macro lens for my camera and shoot with it all the time and no pests have come up in any pictures that I can tell.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

 

[CHSUB]

tank looks good; i think more patients is the only thing needed. great sps' tanks take years not months to develop. regarding nutrients less is better, with hobby grade test kits 0.00 is what you want. large inputs of food will feed your corals and fish, maintaining low no3 and po4 is the goal. the idea that corals need elevated levels of no3 and po4 is ridiculous. Coral don't consume no3 and po4 their, endosymbiotic dinoflagellates, zooxanthellae do!

 

[leveldrummer]

More pics!

 

[djkms]

I will get some pics up tonight.

CHSUB - If 0 PO4 NO3 is needed for SPS why did my SPS bleach out when I bottomed out my nutrients?

I do know that a great SPS tank takes time but my corals came from a 2+ year established system when I converted to a 225. I would think I would see progress over 8 months but so far that is not the case. It has actually gotten worse since bottoming out my nutrients and I have lost some prized coral.

 

[CHSUB]

I will get some pics up tonight.

CHSUB - If 0 PO4 NO3 is needed for SPS why did my SPS bleach out when I bottomed out my nutrients?

I do know that a great SPS tank takes time but my corals came from a 2+ year established system when I converted to a 225. I would think I would see progress over 8 months but so far that is not the case. It has actually gotten worse since bottoming out my nutrients and I have lost some prized coral.

0.00 with hobby grade test kits is not really zero. imo, when people say they raised nutrients and their corals improved, it is generally done by adding more fish and feeding more and the net effect is better colored corals. the higher no3 and po4 is a result of more feeding and not the reason the corals improved. adding more fish, feeding more and maintaining low nutrients would be my course of action. there is no easy answer and your tank looks very nice. imo your doing everthing right!!!

 

[trueblackpercula]

Great looking tank I don't see anything wrong. Maybe some of the Sps you have just don't have the color your looking for. By a new piece with lots of color and see if it fads.
Your water is in check and you have one of the best lighting systems out there.
Good luck and thanks for sharing

 

[leveldrummer]

I think the tank looks good, since you recently made the upgrade, you might still be going through a bit of "new tank syndrome" although I think after 8 months, the tank should settle in a little better.

This is the deep sea 225? did you add the overflow yourself or is that something they offer? Ive only seen the full length overflows they make, not the short ones.

Does that tank have 3 drains and 2 returns?

also, how many braces does it have.

Sorry to ask so many unrelated questions, Ive just been considering getting this tank later this year for an upgrade myself.

 

[djkms]

Thanks all, I appreciate the kind words and your time posting. After typing this and talking with you all I think I am over thinking this.

The corals that are upset have been upset since the tank move and have shown no improvement in 8 months. This has been bothering because some of my favorite pieces are crap now. However, most of them are growing (or STN'd and died). On the other hand, the corals that I have added new within the last 6 months are doing fine. Maybe a little pale now due to my increased vinegar dosing but otherwise good.

Maybe I should just admit defeat with these pieces and take them out? I can probably take them to my buddies shop to try to nurse back. Just looking at them everyday is really taking the wind out of my sails....

Here is my most recent FTS and macro shots following

Garf Bonsai

Teal Stag

Red Planet

Purple Stag

Tri-Color Valida

Pink-Stylo

 

[hedgedrew]

I have some ideas but dont want to bash products on here. So if you want call me on my cell. 9172091125. Andrew

 

[djkms]

I think the tank looks good, since you recently made the upgrade, you might still be going through a bit of "new tank syndrome" although I think after 8 months, the tank should settle in a little better.

This is the deep sea 225? did you add the overflow yourself or is that something they offer? Ive only seen the full length overflows they make, not the short ones.

Does that tank have 3 drains and 2 returns?

also, how many braces does it have.

Sorry to ask so many unrelated questions, Ive just been considering getting this tank later this year for an upgrade myself.

It is a Deep Sea 225. I LOVE the tank! The overflow is just a Lifereef. I decided not to get it drilled because at the time I was not positive if it was going to be a room divider or not. As far as braces, there are just 2 plastic strips that run down every 1/3 of the way across. It has a PVC/wood bottom which is real nice but I don't believe that comes standard anymore.

 

[leveldrummer]

So thats a hang-on-back overflow? looks great!

thanks for answering the quesitons.

As for the coral issues, the new pictures show much better what your talking about, If they are growing and showing good PE, I say leave them and dont remove them, its certianly possible to bring them back.

you mentioned you switched lights right when you made the upgrade, maybe thats an issue. (although again, I would think 8 months is enough for them to adapt)

 

[Chrisrush]

Looks like low nutrients to me. Pale colors associated with UNLS.

 

[DopeCantWin]

Looks like low nutrients to me. Pale colors associated with UNLS.

Or possibly too long of a photoperiod or too strong lights. It does look like starved corals.

 

[djkms]

Or possibly too long of a photoperiod or too strong lights. It does look like starved corals.

Photoperiod is as follows:
T5's
Pure actinic - 9 1/2 Hours
Actinic Plus - 9 Hours
Actinic Plus (2nd set) 8 1/2 Hours
Fiji Pink - 8 Hours
Halides - 6 Hours 45 Minutes

Here are my PAR measurements:

As far as running a low nutrient system, here is what I did; My vinegar break even point was 105ml per day. I then maintained NO3 around .25-.75 for months. About 2 months ago I increased it to 120ml per day and it brought my NO3 from around .5 to 0 over the course of 2 weeks. After the 0 reading I let it stay at 120ml for another week and then dropped it back down to 105ml and have been maintaining that way since. I dose vinegar automatically with a marine magic dosing pump. It spreads the doses out every 2 hours throughout the day. The Vinegar id dosed into my cryptic fuge which gets very slow flow through it.

Yesterday I turned off the vinegar dosing pump and will leave it off until I get a measurable reading of NO3 again. The reason I decided to bottom out my nutrients (along with trying to color up corals) is because I battle cyano when there is a measurable amount of NO3 in the system.

 

[Johnyman]

It's definitely low nutrientes issue, be careful because if you dont feed your corals some of them will start bleaching.

 

[DopeCantWin]

Could your flow be too much near the corals that are having issues?

 

[djkms]

Could your flow be too much near the corals that are having issues?

As you can see from my FTS my MP40's are high up and there is no coral in direct fire from them except my garf bonsai. The MP40's are placed closer to the front of the tank and the rockwork sits behind them for the most part. Except for the right side of the tank, some corals are catching pretty strong flow since the rockwork is higher up and closer to the front. I did my best placing the MP40's so that no corals are getting directly blasted. Also, my sump return lines are shooting towards the top of the water.

 

[jda]

If you would like, you can swing my my place in Boulder/Longmont and check out my SPS tanks and I can walk through what I do. Then, we could go by yours and check it out.

My first guess is that you are doing too much. I would drop the vinegar and let the system cycle - you might need some anoix bacteria to colonize if you have been stripping nitrate with oxic bacteria grown with your carbon source. Unless the sand is really, really old, you should not have nitrate or phosphate issues for years and years even if you run no GFO or a carbon source (I don't do either, or skim). Your N and P should be undetectable on Salifert, not at 5 or .4 - these are undetectable in my system and I have great growth and color.

I have frags of most of those corals that you posted. You can have some and see if they color up. I have seen a few tanks where the existing stock never thrived again, but new stuff did, but I don't want to air this theory here and ruin your thread.

Don't sweat the cyano - it is usually the last thing to get figured out. I have a bit in my tanks and I just don't care anymore. Bottom line - if there is not enough nutrients to fuel a bit of algae, there is not enough to grow coral.

 

[djkms]

If you would like, you can swing my my place in Boulder/Longmont and check out my SPS tanks and I can walk through what I do. Then, we could go by yours and check it out.

My first guess is that you are doing too much. I would drop the vinegar and let the system cycle - you might need some anoix bacteria to colonize if you have been stripping nitrate with oxic bacteria grown with your carbon source. Unless the sand is really, really old, you should not have nitrate or phosphate issues for years and years even if you run no GFO or a carbon source (I don't do either, or skim). Your N and P should be undetectable on Salifert, not at 5 or .4 - these are undetectable in my system and I have great growth and color.

I have frags of most of those corals that you posted. You can have some and see if they color up. I have seen a few tanks where the existing stock never thrived again, but new stuff did, but I don't want to air this theory here and ruin your thread.

Don't sweat the cyano - it is usually the last thing to get figured out. I have a bit in my tanks and I just don't care anymore. Bottom line - if there is not enough nutrients to fuel a bit of algae, there is not enough to grow coral.

That would be cool. I have a buddy who lives in Longmont who I visit every few months. If you want to PM me your info I will get in contact with you. I appreciate the help!

The sand was replaced when I upgraded to this system. I do feed heavy though which is why I have to use vinegar, otherwise my nitrates just keep creeping up.

 

[jda]

PM sent.

I think that you are not allowing the necessary anoxic bacteria to grow to eat up those nitrates. The carbon source is creating bacteria by gobbling up any phosphate and nitrate that it can find. As a result, there is no food for the denitrifying bacteria to grow with, so your nitrates will climb if you stop the vinegar... but using the vinegar strips the phosphates too low and the coral suffer. In short, my theory is that you tank never fully cycled to get to where it can consume nitrate like most.

This may seem backwards, but I would seriously cut back on the vinegar with the intent to stop completely, even if the nitrates climb for a little bit first. Even in a really, really stocked reefs (how many fish are we talking about?), most tanks can handle the nitrate load... it is the phosphates that start to grow after a number of years (another issue for another day, but very easily solvable). Just feed the fish a normal amount for a few weeks while you cut back on the vinegar and allow the anoxic bacteria to grow. Stop feeding your coral all together - they don't need it. My guess is that the nitrate might go up a bit, but should quick go back down.