Marinemix Bioassay and Bio-Sea Marinemix

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ron:

Do you recall if either of these two salts were used by anyone in your initial study of tank water?

If so, the results for those tanks would be useful in understanding the relationship between the metals concentrations to starting salt mix and the metals concentrations in reef tanks that use them.

TIA

 

[rshimek]

Hi Randy,

They were not use by anybody in my earlier studies. Frankly, I didn't know of the Bioassay forumation until I was told about it last summer by Dennis Tagrin. I knew of the Bio-Sea salt (in fact, I used it one time, maybe 10 years ago, for a short period, before I went to IO), but by luck of the draw, nobody using it was in the first study.

I really didn't choose any salt mixes or the people in my first study, I basically took everybody who volunteered and who would pay for some of the test results.

In the best of all worlds, I would have liked to have had equal numbers of salt users from several manufacturers, but there is a real fog here - including who knows, really, who makes which salt mix for whom.

 

[WaterKeeper]

In 18 years I have never seen the Bio-sea product in a LFS. Not at least in the Mid-west

 

[rshimek]

Tom,

ROLF! Here in Montana, one generally doesn't see Salt mixes in pet stores.....

Those products were somewhat common in the Seattle region when I lived there about 10 years ago. More shelf space to Aquarium Systems products though, and Tropic Marin.

 

[postenje]

Randy, I've noticed that these mixes state they buffer pH. I think you are usually an opponent to buffers in general.. preferring instead to adjust the pH via kalkwasser. I don't remember seeing IO touting it's buffering ability. What are your thoughts on this buffer in the "better" salts?

Jeff

 

[postenje]

Also, Is it five grand per salt tested or five grand for a few ? How much would it cost to get a truely impartial study done on all mixes. I'm thinking that since this is such an important part of the hobby we might be able start a donation type fund to get some testing done. If each person could donate like 10 bucks we could amass a large amount of money fairly quickly I would think.

Or.. I could be a complete moron.

 

[traveller7]

How much would it cost to get a truely impartial study done on all mixes.

Or.. I could be a complete moron.

It would be nice to have a study done on all the mixes, but a point has been made already. Some performed better then others with sensitive animals. Is it the customers responsibility to ensure a product performs as advertised?

I can't wait to see which "Salty" department responds first: Legal, Marketing or Engineering.

btw: the "truely impartial" comment could support your closing statement if interpreted in a negative manner by the one who conducted the target study. It would seem to me you are looking for a more inclusive study, correct?

 

[postenje]

meant nothing negative or tried to imply he wasn't impartial but I can see what you mean by my comment.

However, now that you said that he did admit to using IO in the test because he uses it. By him taking some data directly from the manufacturers, doesn't seem fair to me either.

I was talking about buying a 2 or 3 bags of salt from different vendors (to ensure QC from the manufacturer) of each salt out there, sending these bags to some lab, having the "tests" performed, and providing us with the information to analyze and determine if it's good or bad.


"Is it the customers responsibility to ensure a product performs as advertised?"

Traveller, the problem with the salts is that unless it's something physically not working it's very hard to tell if the product is faulty in this hobby. For instance if you bought a skimmer and water spilled out of the reaction chamber you would know it didn't work. When we mix up salt and nothing dies are we not to think everything is okay? Are we supposed to spend 5 grand on every bucket of salt we buy to make sure it still is good".

 

[traveller7]

meant nothing negative or tried to imply he was impartial but I can see what you mean by my comment.

Thanks for the follow up

By him taking some data directly from the manufacturers, doesn't seem fair to me either.

Not sure about fairness, but contraints will always force compromise and data was also pulled from Atkinson-Bingham.

When we mix up salt and nothing dies are we not to think everything is okay? Are we supposed to spend 5 grand on every bucket of salt we buy to make sure it still is good".

I believe that is specifically why very sensitive animals were used. Most of our tanks don't support sexual reproduction of our animals, but the adults seem to "survive." Why might that be? It is possible we are on a path to finding out.

No, we are not supposed to spend $5K per bucket. The manufacturer, making the product and the profits has the responsibility for the development, research, and quality control. Our possible actions are in which bucket we choose to buy. If a manufacturer stops selling their product over night for real or even imagined reasons, we will see plenty of correlated testing. Let's hope that their resources are pointed toward more intense research instead of legal and marketing activities.

postenje, thank you for taking the time to jump in on the discussions, it makes RC a better place and hopefully moves our hobby forward.

 

[rshimek]

Originally posted by traveller7

Hi,

Most of our tanks don't support sexual reproduction of our animals, but the adults seem to "survive." Why might that be?

This is simply due to the fact that adults are more complex animals with more ways to detoxify and ameliorate poisonous materials. This precisely why larvae are often used in bioassays. Something that might take months or years to kill an adult will often kill or deform a larva in a very short time.

No, we are not supposed to spend $5K per bucket.

In point of fact, a salt that gave results that were indistinguishable from NSW is cheaper than the ones that have very poor survivorship.

 

[WaterKeeper]

ROLF! Here in Montana, one generally doesn't see Salt mixes in pet stores.....

In Montana they still rely on trading posts don't they? Pet stores only carry bison food.

P.S. I just wanted you to know I find the posts in which people are saying you are getting kick-backs most offensive. I may question you methods or data at times but never your motives or integrity.

An Urban sophisticate from Ohio

 

[rshimek]

Originally posted by WaterKeeper

Hi,

In Montana they still rely on trading posts don't they? Pet stores only carry bison food.

Yeah, that and coyote kibble....

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

They were not use by anybody in my earlier studies.

Thanks, Ron.



How much would it cost to get a truely impartial study done on all mixes.

The problem is that we don't know what caused the difference that Ron observed. The biological test is the one that mattered. The elevated metals is one hypothesis to explain the result. If it is related to metals, which one? How much of it is too much? Maybe it isn't metals, but ammonia, or nitrite, or pH, or something completely different. Maybe it is not enough of something. Artificial seawater is very complex.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, I've noticed that these mixes state they buffer pH. I think you are usually an opponent to buffers in general

Any artificial seawater will effectively buffer the pH because of the bicarbonate/carbonate and boric acid/borate in it. That is normal and to be expected.

I'm not inclined to like supplementing alkalinity with "buffers" for three reasons; cost compared to baking soda or washing soda, unknown amounts of borate, and the fact that it is not a balanced additve with calcium (unlike limewater, CaCO3/CO2 reactors, etc.).

 

[rshimek]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

Hi Randy,

[ If it is related to metals, which one?

A couple of points. I don't think it is any one metal that is the problem, but rather the entire metals load.

How much of it is too much?

This will vary with conditions as well. We have good about a few metals, and no data about others. Human health concerns drive this research and any effects on animals is generally considered ancillary and irrelevant unless it impacts humans in some way (i. e. economically, by depressing a fisheries, for example). Almost no work has been done on coral reef animals directly; I did cite most of those papers in my references.

Maybe it isn't metals, but ammonia, or nitrite, or pH, or something completely different. Maybe it is not enough of something. Artificial seawater is very complex.

It could be any number of causes, however, it is probably due to something that we already know causes larval mortality, and in this case the obvious thing that stands out is the difference in metals loads between some of the mixes and natural environments.

 

[postenje]

FYI
http://www.inlandreef.net/saanprdo.html

sorry if this in another thread

Jeff