Mountains of sawdust (360g plywood, LED, Arduino build)

Bah! I don't believe in "cycles" - in the traditional sense, anyways. Some day I'll explain why. Maybe I'll title that post "In Which DWIZUM Alienates the Other Half of His Audience." :lol:
I'm interested in this as well! The first time I ever set up a reef I let the kind of grungy live rock cycle the tank, but every time after that I've been upgrading tanks and moving the livestock simultaneously. Because of this I wasn't able to allow for the "proper" cycle time before all the original residents had to be moved over, but even though I would add brand new sand and in some cases new rock as well I never got more then a mini-cycle where nitrates would spike to about 10ppm and I would get a fine dusting of algae on everything before it would go away on its own. I assumed this was because the majority of my rock was "pre-cycled" coming from an established tank, but I'm curious as to your hypothesis as well.
 
I will preface this post by saying - YMMV, and I would never suggest this approach to a newcomer or someone who doesn't know what they're doing and/or isn't willing to make necessary adjustments if things take a turn for the worst.

I set up my first "reef" tank before many of the current practices were well established in the hobby - I didn't know what live rock was. VHO T12 was still pretty new. MH wasn't on the radar. People used UGFs and big wet/dry filters. I'd seen an obscure reference to a protein skimmer in a magazine, and my LFS literally laughed when I asked if they could order me one.

At any rate, that first tank of mine started 100% sterile. It was dry crushed coral, dry clean rock, fresh synthetic seawater, and equipment. There was no biological component whatsoever. So, of course, had I dropped lots of fish in, they would have died as the nitrogen cycle occurred. I cycled according to conventional practice at that point in time - drop in a single hardy fish, and monitor the nitrogen cycle until it leveled out.

My next tank was a bit of an accidental hybrid of the old-fashioned sterile approach and the modern liverock approach. It was started with "seeded" crushed coral and rock from that first tank. I tried to "cycle" it in the conventional sense at that point in time (let it sit empty with a pinch of flake food to provide nutrients - we knew not to put fish in to kick off the cycle by now) but nothing happened. I added the first livestock s-l-o-w-l-y (a fish every month), and again - nothing.

My next tank after that was what you might consider standard by today's practices - it was started full of fresh-from-the-ocean live rock. It experienced a huge surge in the various elements of the nitrogen cycle as it sat empty, before I added fish. I had the typical nutrient-related issues during that tank's first year - various pest algae, dinos, etc. - I'd never had these issues with prior tanks.

After that "conventionally modern" tank, I've never done another traditional new tank by today's standards. All of my tanks have been started with mostly dry clean dead rock (man made for the most part), and a small amount of well-seasoned live rock from an established system. I've started at least 4 or 5 systems in this manner. Some sat empty for a month or two because I was nervous about the nitrogen cycle, but some were fully stocked within hours of being set up. All of them were successful, and I had no nutrient problems, ammonia/nitrite spikes, or any other "new tank" issues. Some of these tanks were "live transfers" - that is, I HAD to put lots of livestock in a new tank, because I was taking an old tank offline simultaneously.

One of those tanks was started with nothing but a well-stocked macroalgae refugium for nutrient export (a skimmer was added later because I was embarrassed to have a skimmerless tank :lol: ). That tank did the best. It strikes me that for skimmers to remove waste from an aquarium, that waste has to be in a certain format. Whereas natural uptake via macroalgae (or, hopefully, TS) is a little more broad-spectrum, since pretty much all waste will eventually decay to the point that algae will use it. Meanwhile, if something in your system decays past the "large polarized molecule" state that a protein skimmer can grab, you're outta luck if a protein skimmer is your only export. So, I'm a firm believer in starting a tank off with "natural" waste management instead of protein skimming, even if a skimmer will be used longterm.

So, cliff notes - I have experience with several tanks in the past that were started with a hybrid approach. Use mostly clean sterile live rock, plus select well-cured live rock, stock reasonably (i.e. no mandarins! No delicate fish! Don't overdo it!), ensure you have nutrient export in place to deal with the mild spikes you'd get otherwise, and things are fine.

So, Alex, I pretty much agree with what you found - if you start a tank with tons of fresh or barely cured live rock, OF COURSE you're going to get all sorts of nutrient spikes. It has nothing to do with your tank's readiness for livestock, and everything to do with all the crud on the liverock dying off. IMHO this is one of the silliest things we currently do in this hobby- jam a pound per gallon of dirty rock into a brand new tank. Regardless of my own influence, success, or failure, I hope this practice ends in the next decade. Or, at least before it becomes illegal to harvest natural live rock. It's a great resource for sure, but not always used appropriately IMO.

On the opposite end, if you start a tank with a completely sterile environment (my first tank), you'll get a huge cycle when you introduce livestock, because there's zero processing capability in your system. This is absolutely a silly approach as well.

So, I try to hit dead center. Start off with a moderate biological processing capacity, thanks to select seasoned live rock or substrate, and an otherwise sterile system. This way, you don't have a cycle from excessive liverock die-off, and you don't have a cycle from a complete lack of nutrient processing capability.

This post ended up being a ramble, I hope it makes sense. :) I'm sure that tomorrow when my order arrives and I dump fish in this monster, some people will think I'm crazy for putting livestock in a "new" tank, regardless of my explanation.
 
Makes perfect snese to me. ;) Speaking of the crud from LR, I just bought a piece of LR from my LFS for the 5.5 gallon my son is putting together. Thankfully he is listenning to me as far as putting the tank together. He was ready to put that rock into the tank, and I told him it would be better to leave it in a 5g bucket with a powerhead for a couple of weeks. The amount of crud coming off that rock is amazing. All that crud is easier to clean out of a bucket than the tank.
 
I guess what it boils down to is, if you're experienced enough to know what to look for and how to react to a new tank, why take a path that has you sitting around for a month or two waiting for things in your tank to decay/grow/balance out; when it's possible to just start the tank with exactly what you need? Again though I wouldn't push this approach on anyone and I definitely feel that the current "conventional" cycling procedure for a new tank is probably best for newcomers to the hobby.

Anyways, it's Tuesday. That means I'm waiting for the fedex truck to rumble down the road. :D

I'll start with what most people will consider the most boring of my additions, though I must say I'm excited about every single specimen that's arriving today. I present, Sphaeramia nematoptera:

lg-39336-cardinalfish.jpg


Three of these guys/girls arriving in today's shipment.
 
Hey, nice fish :D I loved keeping cardinals until I saw one with my cleaner shrimp hanging out of its mouth. I believe that this would only happen if the fish was as large as mine was or if you have very small shrimp :)

I use the same approach as you do when starting tanks. We start completely sterile, add one or two pieces of live rock from one of our other systems and one small fish (regardless of the size of the system). We do not run a skimmer for a few months and don't put anything in the refugium until we feel that the plants have enough to "eat." We only run actinic lights during the "cycle" to encourage coralline growth. Once coralline starts to grow, we start to add corals. After fighting many losing battles with a. majano, bryopsis, hydroids (all from my first purchase ever of live rock via teh interwebs), I would never ever think of starting my tanks any other way.

If you haven't already, you may want to consider setting up a small quarantine tank for corals. We lost thousands of dollars worth of montipora corals to nudibranchs a few years ago. If we had known anything about them, we would have quarantined the one monti that I purchased from a fellow club member that happened to have nudibranchs on it. We also managed to pick up red bugs from a store bought frag but thankfully, those are easily treatable (unlike acro eating flatworms!).
 
I have a local hobbyist who has promised me a 55g he's currently using as a planted FW tank, once he replaces it with a 20g he recently bought. That 55 will likely be a QT system. I won't be ready for corals for a few months, so I've got time to set it up, etc.

Oh and I need to add another criteria to my list for selecting livestock. I've decided to try and not duplicate any exact species I've kept at any point in the past. I need to encourage myself to try some new things after keeping pretty much the same few species of fish for most of my time in this hobby.
 

Where did you dig that one up? After having an unnatural fascination with everything that flew as a kid, I've never seen that one.

Fedex supposedly guarantee 4:30PM delivery. It's 3:12PM. I suppose I might as well leak the next species, which is a pair of these:

p-39496-clownfish.jpg


"Fiji Bareberi" clownfish, Amphiprion barberi, a newly identified species that apparently used to be grouped in with "tomato clowns" or other similar species.
 
p-39496-clownfish.jpg


"Fiji Bareberi" clownfish, Amphiprion barberi, a newly identified species that apparently used to be grouped in with "tomato clowns" or other similar species.

:thumbsup: Nice! I wonder if they have the same disposition as the tomato clowns. Are you going to provide them with an anemone eventually?
 
You've seen that plane Willie! The normal view is sitting on its tail pointed straight up.


How were those fish packed?
 
The clowns will definitely have an anemone at some point. Don't exactly know temperment as there isn't much on this species and I don't think it's fair to assume tomato-like characteristics.

The fish were pretty well packed. I got two boxes - one from liveaquaria's facility in California, and one from the "Diver's Den" facility in WI. They had about the same number of specimens as each other, but the Diver's Den box is twice as big and MUCH heavier. I'm about to open them up to see what the difference is all about!
 
The clowns will definitely have an anemone at some point. Don't exactly know temperment as there isn't much on this species and I don't think it's fair to assume tomato-like characteristics.

The fish were pretty well packed. I got two boxes - one from liveaquaria's facility in California, and one from the "Diver's Den" facility in WI. They had about the same number of specimens as each other, but the Diver's Den box is twice as big and MUCH heavier. I'm about to open them up to see what the difference is all about!

You've got two boxes of livestock and you are posting instead of opening them? I'd have the bags floating the moment they passed through the front door :lol:

Im curious about how the clowns will be temperament wise, especially since you put them in so early, they may end up the most dominant fish in the tank. though, not knowing what else is in the plan it may not matter how they behave.
 
I actually started the 60 I have now with your hybrid approach because I was upgrading from a 7 gallon nano and did it all at once with fresh rock and sand then the established rock and sand from the nano. It worked well but when I move in a few months I am going to start completely sterile with all dry sand and rock and wait for the cycle to happen.

I did not seed my screen and was not very impressed with the growth initially and was doing frequent small water changes until I started to see some growth. I would defiantly suggest go with the triple screen sandwich, I am regretting not doing it now because during cleaning 99% of the algae comes off and I feel that is causing swings in my parameters. My tests all say good but my mind says it cannot be good. Another reason to go with multiple smaller screens over one large one.
 
sweet! fish!!!!!!

much like everything else about this build, i like that you're trying different fish. the pajama cardinals are pretty cool looking and the clown should be interesting to watch as well. of course we need pics of them in their new digs once they get settled.
 
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