Neptune ATK First Impressions

sleepydoc

Team RC
I ordered a Neptune ATK and hooked it up a few days ago and thought I'd post my first impressions.

As background, I have no controller but am planning on getting one within the next several months and have basically decided on an Apex. I currently have a Tunze Osmolator that has been working perfect (except for one time when I failed to keep the optical sensor clean ;Facepalm)

Note - I typically advise against getting new products immediately after they come on the market in case there are unforeseen bugs. In my system, my sump is easily has the capacity to handle the entire 10 gallon capacity of my ATO reservoir, and the drop in system salinity would not be disastrous, even if the ATK were to dump the entire contents into my system. Since I was planning on getting a FMM when I purchased an Apex I decided to go ahead and take the plunge.​​

Setup/Configuration
Setup was very easy and is about as plug-and-play as you can get - mount the bracket in your sump, plug the two sensor cables into the FMM box. Connect the tubing to the pump and the float valve. Plug the pump into the FMM box, and plug in the power supply. I haven't mounted the box yet, but the entire process took less than 10 minutes and a pretty blue light was glowing, telling me my system was ready to go. The magnetic holder held well and has a rubberized backing to prevent slipping. The magnet doesn't feel as the Tunze's, but it's working fine on my 40b sump.

The system is designed to be used out of the box in stand alone mode, but can also be connected to an Apex controller. The controller connection gives more options for alerts, configuration and disables the IQ Fill functionality.

'IQ fill' - from the description and comments from @Terence, The FMM takes a running average of the last 5 top off run times. If the system runs for more than twice this average it says something's wrong and triggers an alarm.

FMM inputs - #'s 1 & 2 are used by the optical sensors. 3 & 4 can be used for a leak detection probe and a ATO reservoir level sensor respectively. If these are connected then the unit will shut off the pump when a leak is detected or the water level drops below the sensor.

Alarms - there are 4 ways to trigger an alarm (that I know of,) all of which shut off the pump and make the unit beep. (note that the number of beeps corresponds to the port to which the corresponding sensor is connected - a nice touch)
  1. If the unit has been running too long and IQ Fill is activated the unit emits a series of single beeps
  2. If the water level rises above the upper sensor on the bracket for more than 10 minutes it will emit a series of 2 beeps.
  3. If the leak detector senses water it emits a series of 3 beeps
  4. If the reservoir level falls below the sensor it emits a series of 4 beeps.

Performance/use
In the few days I've used it, it seems to do a good job of maintaining my sump level. Just eyeballing the volume change in the return chamber it appears that the Neptune ATK has a slightly larger volume swing than the Tunze osmolator did, but it's not a huge difference and definitely not enough to matter. I'd estimate the water level change to be around 5mm for the ATK vs 3 mm for the Tunze, or approx 600ml vs 400ml. Just to check, I pulled up on the float valve as it was filling and it does indeed stop the flow of water as one would expect.

The PMUP pump is definitely quieter than the Tunze pump. It also is easier to keep upright and will prime itself without me reaching into the sump to shake the bubbles out like I had to do with the Tunze pump. Flow wise it's about the same. I think the flow of the PMUP is likely better but it gets restricted by the float valve. I also haven't trimmed the tubing yet.

Yesterday I did a 15 gallon water change for which I close the valve on the return pump & turn it off, turn off the skimmer and let the contents of the C2C overflow siphon down to the sump, causing the sump level to rise a couple of inches. After 10 minutes, the FMM began to beep, as expected. Once the water change was complete, I waited to see if the beeping would stop. Even after waiting a few hours and letting the sump level drop it still didn't stop beeping. A quick check on the web site confirmed that once an alarm is triggered you have to unplug the device to reset it.

Some people have asked about using other pumps. If you have an Apex you could of course use one of the switched ports. If you're using as a standalone system and want something besides the PMUP pump, you either need to find another 24V pump (kind of an unusual voltage for a pump,) use a step-down transformer, or rig a relay to control a 120V pump.

Impressions:
Compared to the Tunze osmolator there are some definite advantages & disadvantages.

The ability to easily add a leak detection sensor and ATO reservoir sensor is very nice, and would be nice to have on the Tunze, especially since priming the Tunze pump is a bit annoying. With a bit of tinkering, I think you could do the same and add a float valve to the Tunze, but it would definitely involve more work.

Without some DIY tinkering you're limited to the PMUP pump (not a big deal, IMO) I like the PMUP pump better than the Tunze pump. Tunze does have an optional adaptor that lets you use any 120V pump you want, but it's pretty pricey, considering it's little more than a 12V relay.

In general, optical sensors are more reliable than float sensors, although either can fail, especially if they aren't kept clean. The backup sensor for the Tunze is a float sensor, but it's positioned above the waterline and almost always kept dry, so the likelihood of it failing when needed is extremely low.

The 2nd optical sensor in the ATK is positioned too close to the first IMO (or at least for my use). Given that my water change routine regularly raises the water level above the 2nd sensor and triggers an alarm it will get rather annoying for me. I may try to mount it separately higher in the sump to avoid the issue.

Forcing you to disconnect the power to reset the alarms in the stand alone configuration is rather annoying, too. Particularly for the high sump level, low reservoir alarms, there's no reason the system can't automatically reset itself once the conditions are cleared.

Another potential problem spot for me is the IQ Fill functionality. It's meant as a safety backup, but it's a bit too conservative, IMO. Most of the time when my ATO runs it's on for about 10-15 seconds. When the Beananimal overflow starts up, the level in the return section of the sump transiently drops while the system equilibrates. I haven't checked it yet, but I can easily see this causing the ATK to timeout and alarm. The Tunze has a straight timer that you can manually adjust; a system I like better for a standalone setup.

Overall, it's kind of a wash in terms of functionality (as a stand alone unit) between the ATK and the Tunze. There are a few advantages, but some disadvantages too. I'll keep using the ATK for now, but for me, the annoyances I list above will likely outweigh the advantages and I'll probably switch back tot he Tunze until I get an Apex.

A couple useful links:
The ATK home page with the product announcement Video
ATK Getting started/setup/FAQ page
 
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Nice write up... thanks! I'm also currently using a Tunze and I'm very pleased with it however, I'm trying to work a new way of doing the top off. Question for you though, I thought I read somewhere that there was a water solenoid valve with the kit. Is that not true or is it a separate buy and install?
 
Yes, good write up indeed. Still tying to work out if this would give me anything that my current setup does not? I use the Avast pressure switch then various Madison reed floats for high and low conditions across the sump and ATO reservoir. IQ Fill seems to be it?
 
Nice write up... thanks! I'm also currently using a Tunze and I'm very pleased with it however, I'm trying to work a new way of doing the top off. Question for you though, I thought I read somewhere that there was a water solenoid valve with the kit. Is that not true or is it a separate buy and install?

No, No solenoid valve - not sure how you would use that with an ATO. I suppose if you had a gravity fed system, you could open the valve instead of turning on the pump and let it fill the system that way, but it would be on the slow side. Neptune does sell a 24V solenoid valve, but it's not included.

What were you trying to change with your top off system?

Yes, good write up indeed. Still tying to work out if this would give me anything that my current setup does not? I use the Avast pressure switch then various Madison reed floats for high and low conditions across the sump and ATO reservoir. IQ Fill seems to be it?

Probably not too much. The optical sensors are less prone to failure than float switches, but it sounds like you use the pressure switch as your primary. I'm not too familiar with the Avast system, but it looks like it uses a pressure switch to trigger a relay on a 120V outlet +/- a float switch as a backup. I think the optical sensors are likely a bit more accurate than the pressure switch, but I don't think that makes any practical difference in terms of salinity swings.

As I mentioned, if you have an Apex controller then things are a bit different.

The differences I can think of would be IQ fill serving as a timer backup, the 2nd level sensor and the ability to add the reservoir sensor. It sounds like you may have done this already with the float switches, so there probably isn't much difference for you.
 
Currently my ATO is in my stand... out of sight out of mind which leads me to finding it empty every once in awhile. As such I have to refill and re-prime the pump.

My idea is to place the ATK pump in my RODI container and feed my sump with it but I'm afraid of a siphoning occurring due to the height differences of the RODI storage container and sump. I was hoping the solenoid valve was tied into the FMM to state something like "...if low water sensor on... then open and if water sensor off then closed..." something like that. It would have been nice if it was tied in with the ATK.
 
Currently my ATO is in my stand... out of sight out of mind which leads me to finding it empty every once in awhile. As such I have to refill and re-prime the pump.

My idea is to place the ATK pump in my RODI container and feed my sump with it but I'm afraid of a siphoning occurring due to the height differences of the RODI storage container and sump. I was hoping the solenoid valve was tied into the FMM to state something like "...if low water sensor on... then open and if water sensor off then closed..." something like that. It would have been nice if it was tied in with the ATK.

Buy one separately, you can add it to the system if your an apex user, unless you want it for standalone use.
 
Currently my ATO is in my stand... out of sight out of mind which leads me to finding it empty every once in awhile. As such I have to refill and re-prime the pump.

My idea is to place the ATK pump in my RODI container and feed my sump with it but I'm afraid of a siphoning occurring due to the height differences of the RODI storage container and sump. I was hoping the solenoid valve was tied into the FMM to state something like "...if low water sensor on... then open and if water sensor off then closed..." something like that. It would have been nice if it was tied in with the ATK.

Aha - no, there's no solenoid, but here is a Murlock siphon break. See the kit contents at the bottom of the page here.

I don't know if you could wire the PMUP pump and the solenoid in parallel so they both operate simultaneously or not. A better idea IMO would be to adjust the system so a siphon is not possible.

Like FullBore says above, the best would be to have an apex to automatically fill the ATO reservoir when empty. I'm always leery of people connecting their RODI system directly to the tank because it amplifies the risk if there's a malfunction
 
You're right about it being scary if not stupid to have the sump topped off directly from the RODI storage container which in my case is 33 gallons. I was hoping the solenoid was integrated but maybe in a future release of their product it will be. I would feel pretty safe using the RODI storage container if it was. Since it isn't, I'll go forward with my plans to have a small pump in the RODI storage container and a switch in the cabinet that I'll turn on which will open the solenoid and turn on the pump to fill the ATO and when I turn the switch off it'll close the solenoid and turn off the pump. I'll integrate this setup with the Apex so the outlets are always off unless I turn on the switch. Let me know if you have a better idea. Thanks for the feedback!
 
You're right about it being scary if not stupid to have the sump topped off directly from the RODI storage container which in my case is 33 gallons. I was hoping the solenoid was integrated but maybe in a future release of their product it will be. I would feel pretty safe using the RODI storage container if it was. Since it isn't, I'll go forward with my plans to have a small pump in the RODI storage container and a switch in the cabinet that I'll turn on which will open the solenoid and turn on the pump to fill the ATO and when I turn the switch off it'll close the solenoid and turn off the pump. I'll integrate this setup with the Apex so the outlets are always off unless I turn on the switch. Let me know if you have a better idea. Thanks for the feedback!

The Apex breakout box is inexpensive and can be used with any type of basic two-wire switch. You could use that with a float switch to manage the solenoid for you. The BOB I think is only $20 or $30 and you can get float switches for pennies on Amazon or Ebay.

I wouldn't hold my breath on the solenoid ever be included in the package. Solenoids are more of a specialized piece of equipment for an ATO, as the standard safety practice is to ensure your ATO outlet is above the height of the container to guarantee there can never be a siphon.
 
I have the BOB which I plan to hook the solenoid to. My thought was to use a standard light switch and attach the solenoid wires to it. When I flip the switch on it should turn the solenoid on (open) and somehow I have to figure out how to turn on the pump on when the solenoid is in an on (open) state. I think if the EB8 outlet for the solenoid is on, then I can tell the pump EB8 outlet to come on if the EB8 solenoid outlet is on. Would that be correct or is there a better way to do this? Or would you get a pig tail (dual plug) cord and have the pump and solenoid plugs in it and the pig tail cord in the EB8 outlet?
 
My understanding is the Breakout Box is for sensing/input only. Not sure how you would hook a solenoid up to it.

I would just get a 120v solenoid valve and hook both the valve and the pump to the same outlet. Either way, good system design would be to have it set up so it doesn't siphon if the solenoid sticks open.


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You are correct about the BOB use. I didn't say it right on my intended use. I needed to say that I want the BOB being triggered by the light switch to turn on the solenoid and pump. After giving this more thought, I don't know if I can use a pig tail for solenoid and pump as the solenoid needs to go in the #4 or #8 outlets on the EB8 and I don't if it would be too much on that outlet for both to be on it. I can still code a pump outlet to be triggered on by the BOB sensing/input.
 
Just saw this on Neptune's FAQ page:

Typically it is best practice to have a limited water reservoir for your ATO solution, but some aquarists opt to connect their RO/DI system directly to their sump. If this is your solution, then it is possible to use our solenoid valve instead of the PMUP. The solenoid valve is not included with the ATK, but can be purchased separately. Find more out about the solenoid on our FMM Accessory page​

Of course, the flow rate would depend on the length of tubing, height difference, etc, so you may still need a pump.
 
Just saw this on Neptune's FAQ page:

Typically it is best practice to have a limited water reservoir for your ATO solution, but some aquarists opt to connect their RO/DI system directly to their sump. If this is your solution, then it is possible to use our solenoid valve instead of the PMUP. The solenoid valve is not included with the ATK, but can be purchased separately. Find more out about the solenoid on our FMM Accessory page​

Of course, the flow rate would depend on the length of tubing, height difference, etc, so you may still need a pump.

I use the solenoid with it connected directly to my RODI- I have a needle valve that limits flow for safety and a 5 gallon pressure tank for storage so I don't have to run the RODI constantly. I personally think this is the safest way of topping off.
 
Ok, so after using this for a few more days, doing some more reading and playing around I have some updates:

First some details on the programming & operation that I have collated from the various Neptune web pages & other sources:
  • There is no manual, online or otherwise - just the videos, FAQs and support forums. It's not difficult to use or setup, but having everything in one PDF would be nice.
  • It will only fill/turn on once an hour.
  • The water level must be below the sensor for 10 seconds for it to trigger and the pump will continue to run for 4 seconds after the sensor is covered with water
  • The maximum run time is 5 minutes
  • As stated above, IQ Fill is the average of the last 5 fills. Until it has run 5 times IQ fill is inactive. After it's active it will run for a maximum of 3x the average.
  • Power cycling resets the IQ Fill memory meaning it needs to fill another 5 times to re-learn.
From my own experimentation, the sensors have approximately a ⅛" (3.2mm) shift in water level or hysteresis between the level needed to switch them on and the level at which they turn off. The return chamber of my sump is 17.5 x 10.5", meaning it will switch on after a drop of about 12 ounces/375 ml of water. When I checked the sensor on my Tunze osmolator, it was actually even more sensitive - turning on & off over just 1/16"! I suppose you could say the Tunze is twice as accurate, but from a practical perspective it doesn't really matter. For my 120 gallon tank, a swing of 12 ounces will cause a salinity variation of just 0.07%.- I think they are both more than accurate enough!

There is about 13/32" (10.3 mm) difference in the level of the primary sensor and the secondary/over fill sensor. For my sump, that translates to 41 ounces/1220 ml, or about 3.5 times the average top off volume. This is very close to the IQ Fill limit of 3x - I suspect that may have been intentional.

My normal routine is to hit the feed (30 min pause) button on my return pump and skimmer when I feed my fish. Even the water draining down from my overflow will raise the sump level by an inch, so I have to either unplug the ATK every time I feed or reset it once the system starts up again. If my protein skimmer shuts off because the container is full, the water level in the sump rises about ⅜" - just enough to trigger the backup sensor.

Another issue I've run into is that the occasional snail or other factor that may temporarily lower the flow through the return pipes can cause small variations in the level of the return chamber. Normally these aren't a big deal, but with the ATK it has been enough to trigger the over fill alarm.

So after using it for a while I ended up taking it out of my tank and putting the Tunze osmolator back in. The Neptune ATK did a perfectly fine job of maintaining the water level, but it was so prone to alarming that it made it more of a hassle than a helper for my system. If the alarms would automatically reset it would help greatly, but since you have to manually unplug the device (and since the device is completely disabled until you do so,) it greatly reduces the usefulness of the alarms. Having to turn it off every day for feeding (and reset the IQ fill memory in the process) means that the IQ Fill is functionally useless a good portion of the time. Even if I were to move the backup sensor to a higher level, the time it takes my beananimal system to reach steady state during startup is long enough that it would cause an alarm.

As I said above, I'm planning on getting an Apex in the not-to-distant future, so the ATK wasn't a complete waste of money, but if you're looking at a stand-alone ATO system, the Tunze would be a better choice IMO. The ability to connect the extra sensors to the FMM is nice, but the hassles of dealing with the alarm system on a daily basis greatly outweigh any potential benefits.
 
I assumed the optical sensors were only water proof on the 'lens' side, but from the appearance of the ATK, they must be water proof on the wire side as well? Also, are the threads on the sensor NPT or something else?

BTW, is it jsut me or is ATK an unfortunate acronym. Reminds me of Dennis Rader.
 
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They are definitively submersible - Neptune says they can be used either in a bulkhead configuration or submersed. There is no taper to the threads, so they're definitely not NPT. I measured them with a calipers and the outer diameter of the threads is 0.548" / 13.92 mm. My guess is that they are metric (M14) since I doubt Neptune developed their own sensor and they likely sourced it from a foreign supplier (or a domestic one that had more sense than to use the english system!)

The float sensor doesn't appear to have a taper to it either. I got 0.59" /14.99 mm when I measured it.

Never thought about Dennis Rader with the ATK, but now I will. Thanks, Simon! :(
 
OK another question .... actually two. What is the height range on the sensors or in other words once the optical sensor triggers the pump, how much does the water level rise before shutting off? 1/2", more, less? Also what is the triggering point - water half way up the prism face, fully submerged? Thanks.
 
The set point of the Neptune optical sensor seems to be right at the point of the pyramid. (when horizontal. I didn't check it mounted vertical.

The change in water level between the system switching on and switching off was about ⅛" for the Neptune ATK and 1/16" for the Tunze Osmolator.
 
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