New fish died overnight

[Fih_12]

Hi everyone I need some help here because I cannot seem to pinpoint why this happened. This post is a little long but I wanted to give as much information as possible. Story and Parameters below:

Parameters:
Tank: 70litres
Age: 2 months
Salinity (refractometer): 1.024
Nitrites (liquid test kit): undetectable
pH (liquid test kit): 8.0
Temperature: 24.7 - 25.1 celcius

Kit (built into tank):
Protein skimmer
Carbon filter
Circulation pump
I added a water heater to keep the water at around 25 degrees

Tank contents:
Gravel substrate Artificial
Artificial plant (saltwater safe)
Artifical stones (saltwater safe)
3 small pieces of live rock...maybe 5kgs total that are arranged on top of eachother.

Live contents (before I added the fish):
One red and white "doctor" shrimp
One turbo snail
Two small snails with cone shaped shells ( don't know their names)
Green algae in small amounts, some hairy and some flat growing directly on the live rock.
I also have three small pineapple sponges growing near the filter but I am told these aren't harmful and actually a good sign that the water conditions are good.

New arrivals (the ones that died):
One blenny about 10cm long
One black and white damsel about 7cm long

The story:
I got the tank about 2.5 months ago. I make my own saltwater using bottled drinking water and instant ocean salt. I got the shrimp about a month into the tanks life and the snails after I started to see some brown algae growth about 2 weeks after that. The algae was under control after I got the snails. I was having some trouble with pH for a bit but it's has been improving steadily and is now stable. Salinity was low for a long time at close to 1.019 but that was before I correctly calibrated my refractometer, I corrected the salt content since then never really had a problem with Nitrites always undetectable.

Yesterday after getting stable pH readings for a week and after seeing all the marine life growth like algae and sponges I felt confident enough to get the 2 fish I mentioned at the start. I added them a little hastily but I followed the steps. I put the bag in first to let the fish get used to the environment then I added water from my tank to the bag and eventually encouraged them to leave the bag ( I flipped it over and let them swim out). The blenny right away sat down and only moved when the shrimp started to annoy it. It would sometimes hide in a small rock cave where the shrimp couldn't molest it. It wasn't breathing quickly and often swam to the top of the tank to get some of the flake food I dropped in. He seemed comfortable in the tank moving here and there every few minutes and being fairly calm allowing the shrimp to "groom" him after a while.

The damsel immediately swam behind the live rock and was breathing very quickly I guess he was scared. After about 45 minutes he swam out and started exploring the tank his breathing was normal and he would sometimes return to the hiding place when I approached the tank but he would swim out quickly after I walked away. He also swam to the surface to pick at the flakes I dropped in. All seemed well. I eventually turned off the aquarium light and went to bed.

I woke up this morning after about 8 hours and found both the blenny and the damsel stiff, with their colour washed out and dead. One of the small snails had attached itself to the blenny. I don't know how long ago that was and the shrimp was trying to groom the dead damsel. Pretty depressing sight.:sad1:

I took them out of the aquarium and here I am writing this thread.

Can anyone help identify what might have caused this? Are there any other tests I can do to see what might be wrong? It's pretty depressing to see those fish die only after a few hours in the tank.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Isaacs55]

theres a lot of things wrong here...
I suggest reading over the stickies if you are new to this hobby, which i am sure you are being that you posted in new to the hobby...
your tank clearly wasnt cycled for you to add fish, especially 2 at a time in a 70 liter tank
sounds like ammonia overload poisoning to me but still your fish shouldve lasted longer then 24 hours...
you need more live or dry rock then you have.
could have been your acclimation process as well.
do you have any sand?
you didnt mention your ammonia
ammonia and nitrite is what you test for.
you sir need to do a lot more reading before adding anymore fish to your tank

 

[Fih_12]

Feedback

Feedback

Hi,

Thanks for the feedback.

No. I don't have any sand. I do have some crushed coral but I decided not to add it and stuck with just the Gravel. Would that help the tank?

How much more live rock? Is there a common rule per litre etc?

I just ordered a full water test kit. So I will use that to get all the parameters in check. I'll definitely check out more information. Losing fish isn't fun so I will make sure it doesn't happen again.

Thanks.

 

[Isaacs55]

Hi,

Thanks for the feedback.

No. I don't have any sand. I do have some crushed coral but I decided not to add it and stuck with just the Gravel. Would that help the tank?

How much more live rock? Is there a common rule per litre etc?

I just ordered a full water test kit. So I will use that to get all the parameters in check. I'll definitely check out more information. Losing fish isn't fun so I will make sure it doesn't happen again.

Thanks.

No worries we're here to help. Everyone was new to this hobby at one point.
just be prepared for some blunt answers lol especially if you havent read any of the stickies on this forum thread.

so with that being said check the stickies and read them thoroughly...and then read them again lol

common rule for how much rock is at least a pund per gallon. so a minimum of 20 pounds in your case. use the unit converter on the home page if you need to.

definitely test your paramaters before adding anymore fish.
to cycle your tank your going to need your amonia spike up to at least 2ppm drop back down to 0 and then your nitrite spike to at least 2ppm and drop back down to 0 as well. by this time you should have nitrtates and a diatom bloom. after you add ammonia up to 2ppm and it quickly drops back to 0, same with your nitrites...then your tank is cycled...should take about 2 months minimum to cycle your tank, if you are using ammonia to cylce. you can use pure ammonia from dr tims or drop a peice of raw shrimp in...but that might be smelly lol

 

[SALTYwaterDOG]

Sorry to hear about your losses Fih. I'm going to side with Isaacs on this.have your self a good read before adding any more fish .and ask lots of questions here.we are all more than happy to see your next attempt be successful. Good luck and see you around

 

[Saltliquid]

Were you adding that much food before the fish went in so the bio system was use to it?
When lights go out PH will drop and possibly collapse.
Do you have lots of disturbance to the surface like ripples or choppy motions, if not the PH crashed during the night.
When lights go back on PH will usually resume!
Add some magnessium each day, it will help[!

 

[Isaacs55]

Were you adding that much food before the fish went in so the bio system was use to it?
When lights go out PH will drop and possibly collapse.
Do you have lots of disturbance to the surface like ripples or choppy motions, if not the PH crashed during the night.
When lights go back on PH will usually resume!
Add some magnessium each day, it will help[!

idk about adding magnessium to a new system...monitoring ph is a good idea but mag and ph dont have a corralation. its mag and DKH which has an effect on ph... but those type of fish should be able to handle a nightly ph swing even if its relatively big...Oxygenating the tank is a great idea which may be a cause to his loss if there wasnt any surface tension...

To the OP: Definitely dont add magnesium though...especialy being new to the hobby

 

[Crooked Reef]

Never add anything you don't test for. Simple as that. The tests you really want to know are ammonia, nitrates, and salinity for a fish only system. Nitrites aren't really a danger to saltwater fish like freshwater fish. They will kill freshwater fish quickly. Ph fluctuates with light cycles. Test it at the same time every time you test. If you test it in the morning after a lights out cycle and in the evening after lights on cycle you will get different results. Your problem could be an ammonia spike, salinity change, or something else. The whole long term acclimation can actually be harmful to the fish. Once the bag is opened ammonia starts to build up. You can add tankwater to the bag all you want but it will not keep the ammonia from forming in the bag. I switched to the salinity match method a couple of years ago and have had minimal losses since. read up on acclimation but I also think it may have been adding too many fish too quickly. Your tank may not be fully cycled and doesn't have enough bacteria to complete the nitrogen cycle with two fish added at once.

 

[Fih_12]

Re: food / pH and water flow

Re: food / pH and water flow

Hi all to answer some questions by liquidg

I was feeding the shrimp small amounts of pellet food that would sink to the bottom I started to only give him 2 to 3 a day because he didn't seem to eat all of it. The snails seem satisfied to eat the algae. generally the amount of food in the tank was low.

Above the surface:
Regarding the water motion I have the built in pump facing upwards so the water flows up and creates some ripples but its very gentle doesn't break the surface no waves. The water does move on the surface. The flake food tends to circle the entire surface of the tank but as I said, No waves or strong motion.

I didn't think oxygen would be an issue because Theres always tiny micro bubbles in the water flowing around. I am guessing from the protein skimmer?

Under the surface:
From the Motion of the tiny bubbles in the water it looks like the water flows in a circular pattern from top to bottom. Sometimes when the food sinks it moves back up which also indicates a circular flow.

I'm going to hold off on any drastic actions until my water test kits comes in. It seems like the inverts are doing fine at least, eating away at the hairy algae.

Thanks everyone for the support I'll be sure to come back here when I have all my water Parameters checked to see wat my next steps should be to balance everything.:idea:

 

[Marchillo]

I didn't read all the responses but just a quick side note unrelated to the fish deaths. Never dump water in your tank from the LFS or anywhere else. It has a good chance of containing copper. Not only will you have dead fish but you will have dead shrimp, crabs, and snails too.

 

[heathlindner25]

if you are adding the local fish store water to your tank when you acclimate your fish, that would be a huge no no.

 

[Saltliquid]

True it is sort of best if you test for what ever, but it’s more so for delicate corals and maybe morphs that abundant mag can be a small issue binding up other elements, you don’t have them, do you?
You see buffering in its simplest form is the go for sea water fish only tanks and especially robust corals, with mag added “a little” each day with out testing for it helps keep PH at 8.0 to the mid 8s.
When I type a small amount I mean it needs to be mixed with RO water not sea water yet and in that RO water it can be a tenth of a tea spoon per two days, I add it each day.
One draw back I get with this way is “fast” growing corallines!
You see it’s of a positive iron, actually in sea water its make up is usually two positive ions and it also stabilises carbonates nicely.
PH that we test for is the measure of the gap between the base and an acid, you put in anything non toxic as a positive ion that will remain in the water and the gap does not close and alls good!
When that gap goes hey wire, that’s your PH collapsing!
This is the rough way to do it, but its what I do and it works great, the other quick fix to sit beside your tank buffers that you can buy ready to go, but that should not be done for to long and it may bring on some serious shock if not done gently.

 

[Saltliquid]

Hi all to answer some questions by liquidg

I was feeding the shrimp small amounts of pellet food that would sink to the bottom I started to only give him 2 to 3 a day because he didn't seem to eat all of it. The snails seem satisfied to eat the algae. generally the amount of food in the tank was low.

Above the surface:
Regarding the water motion I have the built in pump facing upwards so the water flows up and creates some ripples but its very gentle doesn't break the surface no waves. The water does move on the surface. The flake food tends to circle the entire surface of the tank but as I said, No waves or strong motion.

I didn't think oxygen would be an issue because Theres always tiny micro bubbles in the water flowing around. I am guessing from the protein skimmer?

Under the surface:
From the Motion of the tiny bubbles in the water it looks like the water flows in a circular pattern from top to bottom. Sometimes when the food sinks it moves back up which also indicates a circular flow.

I'm going to hold off on any drastic actions until my water test kits comes in. It seems like the inverts are doing fine at least, eating away at the hairy algae.

Thanks everyone for the support I'll be sure to come back here when I have all my water Parameters checked to see wat my next steps should be to balance everything.:idea:

Sounds like you are on the right track with it and if it was copper or any other metal the inverts go first!
If it is ammonia or co2 both equate to negative ions and will stuff up PH.
I hope you find something in your testing to help work it out!

 

[gone fishin]

I would not add anything to your tank that you cannot test for. I would suspect routine WC's would take care of any need for supplementation at the stage your tank is at now.

I also would not add any of the off the shelf pH buffers either. The pH will initially rise but but will drop back soon. Repeated use of pH buffers will most likely elevate your alkalinity.

 

[Isaacs55]

You see it's of a positive iron, actually in sea water its make up is usually two positive ions and it also stabilises carbonates nicely. PH that we test for is the measure of the gap between the base and an acid, you put in anything non toxic as a positive ion that will remain in the water and the gap does not close and alls good!
When that gap goes hey wire, that's your PH collapsing!
.

Im sorry but as many times as i read this it does not make sense.

If you are reffering to Calcium its 2 positive ions in natural sea water...written as Ca++

what you are trying to tell him is that adding magnesium every day will make his ph go up but that is completely wrong. mag has no correlation to ph

If you want your ph to go up you add kalkwasser to raise calcium and alkalinity which depletes CO2...specifically alkalinity because that is what effects ph. The more natural way to raise ph would be to open windows to get rid of excess CO2 in the air thats being equilibriated with H2O of the surface of the tank water. Hence Carbonic acid is what drives ph down...

as for ph going down at night, its because photosynthesis isnt taking place so the process at which respiration takes place breaks down carbohydrates which results in excess CO2 in the water.

ph rises during the day because photosynthesis takes place and converts that CO2 and water right back into carbohydrates and oxygen...

hope that clarifies things for the OP...

 

[Isaacs55]

I would not add anything to your tank that you cannot test for. I would suspect routine WC's would take care of any need for supplementation at the stage your tank is at now.

I also would not add any of the off the shelf pH buffers either. The pH will initially rise but but will drop back soon. Repeated use of pH buffers will most likely elevate your alkalinity.

+1 this is really all you need to do with a new tank. routine water changes will help stabalize all your levels...provided you are using a decent salt mix.
Do not add anything to your tank period untill you get to the point where you understand why you need to.

 

[ericarenee]

I Agree with all but one of the fellow reefers above...

The whole magnesium and semi chemistry lesson should be for a later date with a brand now tank. New Person to the hobby.
What stood out is you said you bought crushed coral but decided to use GRAVEL INSTEAD.
is this right..
You need Araganite sand in the bottom of the tank. Its the best environment for a marine tank.
Then get a test kit to test Ammonia nitrite and Nitrate.. Phosphate

You need to 0 ammonia and Nitrite readings then feed the tank some ammonia and make the ammonia spike.. wait 24 hours and test for ammonia. if its gone and you have met all of the requirements in the new tank stickies. your fish WILL LIVE and be healthy...

liqudg.. not trying to start another chemistry tank war with you. But Please re read your post above and think about if you were new to the Hobby.... For someone new we just need to get there tank Cycled Stable and supporting life.. Not Shock them with a Chemistry lesson.... I do know your way works for you but it confuses the rest of us.....
Thank you for understanding...

 

[CStrickland]

You shouldn't have to dose or buff anything, it's easy to make a worse problem when you try to fix things that way. Just changing your water about 10% every week will keep the levels where they need to be because the salt has all that stuff in it. IMO "distilled water" is much better to buy than drinking water because it doesn't have minerals and heavy metals that can build up as your water evaporates.

Ammonia and nitrates are important to test when you add new fish. But I think if the tank wasn't cycled your inverts would show issues, they don't tolerate ammonia. Please don't try to spike ammonia with them in the tank. Can you call the store and ask what their salinity is? Fish don't mind it low, so some store keep their water low salinity to make diseases easier to treat. We keep ours higher for coral, but if the change was too fast, that might have done them in.

your ratio of rock to water volume is the same as mine, I don't think that's a problem. It sounds like you set the tank up like someone who has freshwater experience, but saltwater is waaay different. The stickies will help you catch up on the learning curve, and keep asking questions - we like to help!

 

[Sk8r]

In this welter of information, some of it not appropriate, I urge you again to go to the top of this forum and read the SETTING UP sticky file, in order, re how to prepare your tank for fish, how to quarantine and introduce your fish, and why you should never allow a drop of bag water to enter the tank. The methods you were using have created a problem for your tank, and you should not get any new fish at the moment. Wait 72 days, feed as normal, and read the sticky.

 

[ericarenee]

Please don't try to spike ammonia with them in the tank. we like to help!

This is Correct.. when i was typing for some reason my mind forget about the tank had them in there.. And the two fish were its first life.......


Thanks for the Correction....... Erica is Blonde and sometimes it shows..:debi: