Nitrate Dosing

[Spyderturbo007]

I think I'm going to start dosing some form of Nitrate in an attempt to get my coral to color up. I've struggled with this for almost a year and a half with no luck. I've tried everything I can think of and nothing works. Anyway, I have access to both Calcium Nitrate and Sodium Nitrate in my lab.

The Calcium Nitrate has an assay of:

Ammonium - 0.002%
Sulfate - 0.005%
Barium - 0.001%
Heavy Metals (as Pb) - 0.002%
Iron - 0.0001%
Copper - 0.0003%
Magnesium & Alkali Salts (as Sulfate) - 0.13%

Unfortunately as with all Fisher Scientific Laboratory Grade chemicals, the Sodium Nitrate just has a Pass / Fail instead of an actual Assay. Anyone use Lab Grade Sodium Nitrate or should I go with the Calcium Nitrate? That 3ppm of Cu scares me.

Thoughts?

EDIT -> I also have access to ACS Grade Nitric Acid.........Hummmmm......

 

[disc1]

Either one should be fine. The copper doesn't become a concern unless you are dosing a lot of it. If you are just trying to make 1ppm or so of nitrate, then the amount of copper you are adding will be parts-per-trillion.

I wouldn't use the nitric acid.

 

[Spyderturbo007]

Either one should be fine. The copper doesn't become a concern unless you are dosing a lot of it. If you are just trying to make 1ppm or so of nitrate, then the amount of copper you are adding will be parts-per-trillion.

I wouldn't use the nitric acid.

I figured as much, but I have no knowledge of how tolerant coral is of copper. I never had the need to do any research.

I'll have to do the math on the dilution and dosing volume when I get back to work after lunch.

 

[Bilk]

How could a nitrate solution at 1ppm elevate a tank volume appreciably?

Edit: Maybe I read the response incorrectly?

 

[Spyderturbo007]

David was referring to the target concentration of the tank, not the solution.

I was shooting for a 5ml addition to an estimated total tank volume of 60g when I did my calculation.

I came up with 15.5580g NaNO3 in 250ml water. Can someone check my math? It should be 45,398ppm NO3 which would mean a 5ml addition should bring 60g of water up to 1ppm.

 

[Bilk]

David was referring to the target concentration of the tank, not the solution.

I was shooting for a 5ml addition to an estimated total tank volume of 60g when I did my calculation.

I came up with 15.5580g NaNO3 in 250ml water. Can someone check my math? It should be 45,398ppm NO3 which would mean a 5ml addition should bring 60g of water up to 1ppm.

Ah ok. After re-reading it, that's what I thought. Calculator for any volume at any concentration.

http://www.endmemo.com/bio/dilution.php

 

[mcgyvr]

I'm going to bottle up my water and sell it as "Dr. M's Nitrate Dosing Solution" :lol:

 

[disc1]

Sodium nitrate is right at 73% nitrate by weight. So if you dissolve 15.5580g in 250ml you'll have (15.558 * 0.73) / 0.250 == 45.4 g /L == 45400ppm nitrate.

If you put 5ml in 60 gallons that is a dilution of (5/ (60 * 3800)) == 0.000022

Applying that same dilution factor to the nitrate you get.(45400 * 0.000022) == 0.9988

If you account for the rounding error in that rough math, that's 1ppm change.

Your math is verified sir.

 

[tmz]

I'm going to toss my calculator and adopt David.

 

[Spyderturbo007]

Your math is verified sir.

Awesome. I just like to be 100% sure before I go dumping stuff in my tank.

I added 5ml last night and it only brought up the Nitrate to 0.25ppm according to my Red Sea test kit. What I think might have caused the discrepancy is that it was about 5 hours between dosing and testing. I'm wondering how quickly a tank can use Nitrate.

I added another 5ml before I went to bed, so I'll test when I get home from work and see where things are at. I guess I'll find out pretty quickly how often I need to dose. Maybe I should have made up more than 250ml. :lol2:

 

[tmz]

I use just 3 grams of sodium nitrate dissolved in ro/di water once a week for the 650 gallon system volume. NO3 is barley detectable at that dose l, ie;around 0.5ppm. Without it NO3 slips to totally undetectable though I'm sure there is still some around as he systm holds a lot o fish and is heavily fed. I stil consider it expermintal and stay low dose to avoid adding too much feriilizer to the tank. I may stop using it alltogether and see if PO4 bounces.

 

[Spyderturbo007]

Are you using it for the supposed benefits of driving down PO4, or for increased color? I don't have any PO4 issues, but my colors suck.

 

[Bilk]

Awesome. I just like to be 100% sure before I go dumping stuff in my tank.

I added 5ml last night and it only brought up the Nitrate to 0.25ppm according to my Red Sea test kit. What I think might have caused the discrepancy is that it was about 5 hours between dosing and testing. I'm wondering how quickly a tank can use Nitrate.

I added another 5ml before I went to bed, so I'll test when I get home from work and see where things are at. I guess I'll find out pretty quickly how often I need to dose. Maybe I should have made up more than 250ml. :lol2:

I've found the the testing lags behind the dosing. I think that some is used relatively quickly by the biology of the tank. It may be being consumed in the sand bed. If you're also carbon dosing, it's doing what I think you're intending it to do by being consumed in the bacterial process. Monitor your PO4 levels closely too, to see when you need to adjust the dosage. Take it slow to arrive at your target.

This is just my experience and observation, but I didn't see a measurable rise in NO3 for three days, but did witnessed PO4 dropping a little during that time. I'm also dosing vinegar - 40ml in 187g net - done in 4 doses over 24hrs using a GHL dosing pump. I've reduced the NO3 dose and have been able to keep it between 2 and 4ppm, while seeing a further reduction in PO4. This regimen brought PO4 down to .048ppm from .12ppm in about two weeks time. I took readings twice a day for both NO3 and PO4 until recently. I still do both each day until I'm confident I know what's happening.

Edit:
Noticed you said you don't have a PO4 issue but not happy with colors. I was using the Hanna Phosphate checker and had zero readings, but knew that wasn't correct because there was nuisance algae present. Bought the ULR checker and found the PO4 level in the water column was .14ppm. Now the algae is almost completely gone. Not all, but most. Some is due to circulation issues where organics were allow to accumulate.

 

[tmz]

Are you using it for the supposed benefits of driving down PO4, or for increased color? I don't have any PO4 issues, but my colors suck.

I don't have color issues , the colors are very good and rich , so it's for nutrient balance C,N and P in my case.. Are your corals pale;dark or just lacking certain hues you want ? Do you think you have a nitrogen deficiency?
I've eliminated gfo use and hope to be able to reduce the amounts of vodka and vinegar I dose by keeping orthophosphate and dissolved nitrogen in more optimal balance,commonly called nutrient "fixing"but I'm very careful to use only very small amounts of sodium nitrate. Needs more time for me to reach any meaningful conclusions about continued dosing for my tanks.
Keep in mind reef surface waters have only abut 0.2ppm NO3.
I test an hour or so after dosing and see the change in NO3 per the salifert kit.
I limit PO4 to help limit nuisance algae not for coral color; they seem to like having a little extra phosphate to help meet their needs for ATP Adenosine triphosaphte) which they use as an energy source for calcium transport to facilitate building skeletal mass..

Coral color variations are usually related to lighting for the most part,ime.Tace elements maybe; but salt mixes cover in a lot of that with water changes ; food does too..Nitrogen or phosphate deficiencies could be an issue is they are truly zero but that is very unlikely to occur in a reef tank with fish and/or feeding.

 

[Spyderturbo007]

Are your corals pale;dark or just lacking certain hues you want ? Do you think you have a nitrogen deficiency?

Yep. They look absolutely terrible. Even my Zoas go pale. I've tried everything and am now grasping at straws. My PO3 & NO3 have been 0ppm since I started my tank. I have never registered either using multiple test kits.

They grow, but never color up. I used to run a 4 x T5 HO fixture but have since switched to one of the Pacific Sun Hyperion S LED fixtures. It was just installed on 12/2, so I'm still in the acclimation phase. My wife thinks that the green in the Aussie Purple Tip Hammer coral is getting darker, but I think she's imagining things.

For example, I purchased a Rainbow Montipora. The guy I bought it from said to "blast it with light" and there was no way I could bleach it with too much light. I put it in the top 1/3 of my tank when I was running the T5s and it was pale within a week.

They aren't bleaching, they just get terribly pale.

Here are a few examples:

Just a few examples of my poor corals....

Misc Acropora when purchased (10-21-12)





Misc Acropora (11-30-13)




Bennet Tort when purchased (1-26-13)




Bennet Tort (11-30-13)






Valida when purchased (1-23-13)




Valida (11-30-13)




Orange Crush Acans when purchased (4-27-13)




Orange Crush Acans (11-30-13) - You can see the bleached Purple Bonzai Acropora in the background.




Aussie Purple Hammer Coral when purchased (8-9-12)




Aussie Purple Hammer Coral (11-30-13)

 

[tmz]

Well, they do look bleachy/not much zooxanthlae in them(zoonthelae is brown and darkens them) which could come from a nitrogen deficiency or other things like: light, salinity,alk, calcium,temperature . Mine do well with PO4 in the .02 t.04ppm range and 0.2ppm NO3 level,fwiw.

I'd be happy to discuss it further to help you bring them back. They are very nice specimens.


Are you dosing anything else? Using zeovit .etc and or orgnic catbon dosing? Running gac or gfo? Would you mind sharing some of the other parameters( sg, temp, calcium, alk) The sodium nitrate or some amino acids might help . Food mght help. I'm not familiar with the lights you use but my instinct would be to cut it back ,move them down in the tank or partially shade them for a while. A friend of mine had a bleached acro,prue white but it still had flesh and a pale baltomossa. I put them in lower light in my tanks and both colored up over the course of a month. He was using t5's. I use halides and vho actinic.

 

[Spyderturbo007]

Well, they do look bleachy/not much zooxanthlae in them(zoonthelae is brown and darkens them) which could come from a nitrogen deficiency or other things like: light, salinity,alk, calcium,temperature . Mine do well with PO4 in the .02 t.04ppm range and 0.2ppm NO3 level,fwiw.

I'd be happy to discuss it further to help you bring them back. They are very nice specimens.

I would love the help!!!! :beer:

Are you dosing anything else? Using zeovit .etc and or orgnic catbon dosing?

I use 1/4tsp of Kalk per gallon of ATO to maintain my Ca and Alkalinity. I haven't had to up the dose yet, but with my clam purchase over the weekend, that might change.

Around Thanksgiving, I bought one of the Zeovit Nano Power Package sampler things from BRS because it was on special. I've been using 2 drops of the Coral Vitalizer and 2 drops of the Sponge Power every other day. It's been about 45 days and it hasn't made any difference.

Running gac or gfo? Would you mind sharing some of the other parameters( sg, temp, calcium, alk) The sodium nitrate or some amino acids might help .

I run GAC on occasion, but not often. I do run GFO because I have some macro algae that grows in my tank. It grows very slowly and is normal a gray color, which I suspect is from the nutrient deficiency. One type is Halimeda, which I know is Calcareous. The others I haven't identified.

Tank Parameters:

• Temperature - 79.9 - 80.3 (Apex Controlled - Probe calibration verified with Calibrated NIST traceable thermometer)
• pH = 7.9 - 8.2 (Calibrated with Fisher Scientific Buffer after cleaning with KCl)
• Magnesium - 1322ppm (ICP)
• Calcium - 445ppm (Red Sea Pro) / 438ppm (ICP)
• Alkalinity - 7.78 dKh (Hanna Checker)
• Nitrate - 0ppm (Red Sea Pro)
• Phosphate - 0ppm (Hanna Checker)
• Salinity - 1.025 (Calibrated Refractometer)

I was fighting with my Red Sea Pro Magnesium test, which is why I only have ICP numbers for that analysis. I purchased an Elos but it was missing reagents that just got delivered last week. I haven't had a chance to run that test yet.

Food mght help. I'm not familiar with the lights you use but my instinct would be to cut it back ,move them down in the tank or partially shade them for a while. A friend of mine had a bleached acro,prue white but it still had flesh and a pale baltomossa. I put them in lower light in my tanks and both colored up over the course of a month. He was using t5's. I use halides and vho actinic.

Unfortunately, I can't move them as they are all epoxied down at this point and most have already encrusted. I started the Pacific Sun fixture at a 3h sunset, 3h sunrise and a max of 40% for 3 hours. According to Yorgos with Pacific Sun, this is considered low and used for acclimation.

The only reason I'm steering away from the issue being light, is that it was happening with my T5 fixture too. I actually haven't added any coral since purchasing the fixture 12/2 because I want to get the bleaching resolved before buying more coral.

 

[yeldarbj]

Great thread! And timely as well. I just started dosing nitrate 4 days ago. I'm using KNO3. It's too early to tell anything good or bad. Based on my calculations, I'm dosing enough to add ~3 ppm NO3 per day, spread over 2 doses - night and morning. Something is taking advantage of it, as I checked NO3 levels this morning and it was only ~ 1 ppm.

 

[Bilk]

Great thread! And timely as well. I just started dosing nitrate 4 days ago. I'm using KNO3. It's too early to tell anything good or bad. Based on my calculations, I'm dosing enough to add ~3 ppm NO3 per day, spread over 2 doses - night and morning. Something is taking advantage of it, as I checked NO3 levels this morning and it was only ~ 1 ppm.

I'm guessing your system is nitrate limited? DSB? If so be careful as the readings lag behind. They did in my case. DSB in tank was knocking it down. Dosed solution for 1ppm rise per day. Took 3 days to see it go to .5ppm. KNO3 will put a lot of potassium in the system. Not sure if that's a good idea. You should monitor that. I think NaNO3 is a better choice.

 

[dadummy]

I have been dosing daily a pinch of sodium nitrate, directly into sump in the am, and would test for nitrate in the evening. Pinches grew bigger and still no change on the API test kit. Notice the precision dosing.
Prior to adding nitrate, vinegar dose was cut down to 20ml on 150g daily, lps and the macro algae growing in sump were pale. PO4 was always an issue.
Since dosing nitrate lps look better than ever, blue ochtodes is a deep blue, dragons breath is red with orange tips. Some paly's that were barely hanging on for years are open and growing.
Sps colors are good as well. Sps colored up some time ago when I started dosing Iron, ferrous gluconate tablets
Tested PO4 after finally getting some new regeants and hanna checker result was 0.02

so far so good with nitrate dosing