Nitrate Dosing

Bertoni, I mean exactly what You said. I think IO is a very good salt on the basis of the several fantastic tanks we look at here on RC. Most of italian reefers think IO is a poor salt and it is even hard to find it on sale.

Anyway it could be that other salt brands have higher values of various elements that can boost pathogen microorganisms in presence of nutrients.
 
Once I was able to measure the par values in the tank I could see they were receiving too much light. Those that paled/browned are now starting to recover since lowering the intensity and raising the fixtures higher. I know you don't want to incur the expense of a meter, so you'll have to go a step at a time.

A very nice gentleman in the Pacific Sun forum offered to lend me his PAR meter. I'm going on vacation in about 2 weeks, so hopefully when I return, I'll be able to get some readings. It's awesome that someone would offer to lend a complete stranger such an expensive piece of equipment. I love this place. :celeb2:
 
Instant Ocean is a fine salt . It 's not missing anything

What is meant by a micro nutrient and a micro nutrient in the context of the posted personal notions?

nutrients increase in presence of adequate micronutrients,
What does that mean? How could it happen?
 
I meant organics/inorganics increase in presence of some elements, maybe iron for instance. In the case of lack of some elements, maybe growth of pathogenic algae/microorganisms could be limited. I'm really sorry, but my english isn't perfect and I could be misunderstood.

There is evidence that in some natural reefs nutrients increase leaded to diffuse coral death, while somewhere else dind't cause any problem. Hypothesis is the difference on presence/lack of some element (I wrongly called those micronutrients, instead of microelements, sorry).

Luca
 
Luca

First of all, your English is much better than my Italian. I think it's great to be fluent in more than one language. I had a bit of fluency in German 35 years ago when I lived there for a few years but don't any longer.

I've read that article several times and posted on the thread where it's been introduced.

The article makes some interesting arguments but it's nothing new.

I intend to have further discussion on some of it. I think it overstates some points. For example I don't think it "blows the lid" off anything ;nor do I think corals are "happier" or grow"better" with very high PO4 ( the article cites as it's main example an aquarium running over 1.0 ppm )for example.
It minimizes others: for example , the lack of density in coral skeleton still indicates the natural calcification process is altered by the high PO4 which I don't think is a good thing and many copiotrophic algae are limited by low a PO4 levels and fueled by high inorganic phosphate.

The law of limiting nutrients has been around since 1828 ; known as Liebig's law of the minimum , it was first applied to agriculture.
The study on coral growth with high inorganic phosphate has been out for over year . Randy Farley addressed it on the Reef Chemistry forum about a year ago.
I do think some folks overdo PO4 limitation and nitrogen limitation though, taking it to a point where corals and other desirable photosynthetic animals suffer and the articles emphasis on this is very helpful,imo as it ties in with my personal inclination to maintain some PO4 and nitrogen though not any where near as much as the example in the article.
While chasing numbers can be a problem, I still personally prefer to test key parameters frequently as best as I can with hobby grade equipment .
I have noted on many occasions over the last 6 or 7 years the importance of phosphate and nitrogen for coral health and and expressed my personal aversion for the so called ultra low nutrient systems which often mean setting 0 PO4 and o NO3 as goals . On the other hand I think many folks run tanks well with undetectable PO4 and NO3 if they supplement via the right foods and/ or dosing specialized supplements and they enjoy using those systems.

FWIW,I maintain some PO4 NO3( PO4 .02 to .05 ppm /NO3 0.2ppm) ,feed well and occasionally dose some iron and regularly dose organic carbon ( vodka and vinegar ) and have for over 5 years. Corals thrive .

These articles by Randy H. Farley on Iron may be of interest:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/aug2002/chem.htm

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2002/chem.htm
 
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Tom, thanks for Your answer.
I agree with all You said. I personally experienced the result of keeping ULNS for over 2 years. Lots of cyano, some coral grow, many do not. Some is good coloured, some do not.
Along the years I've learned what test brand believe to and I often check the numbers and believe in those.
In the last 4 months I've decided to change my husbandry to what You are actually doing and something has gone wrong, but I really can't identify the issue. A friend of mine made the same thing, starting from the same point, and He had great results.
Now I'm still going on waiting with patience the system can find its equilibrium in the new situation, but I'm still waiting for results.

About chasing number I can add, and I talked about it in another thread, that I use Hanna HI93713 (the old model) with tunze/elos reagents. 5 drops of reagents 1, 1 spoon reagents 2 and result is stable, repeatible and guarentee, because 2 days ago I prepared a reference solution and precisioni is incredible. I tested it with a solution 1,2, 0,12 and 0,03, and it always gave back the corresponding value.
 
Luca ,

Tanks are different and complex; it's hard to define one general set of practices that work best in all situations. Some folks report success with unls,;some like to supplement different things; some don't care much about PO4. I like to feed well, keep low levels of PO4 and NO3( ie, PO4 in the .02 to .05ppm range and NO3 in the 0.2 ppm area) . Those levels in my tanks along with everything else has resulted in 5 consecutive years of coral growth and color with extermely limited nuisance algae issues.

Thanks for the tip on the reagent. I use the same old style HI93713 and have fo 6 or 7 years with very consistent results . I test PO4 daily ;it's a habit of mine. It's rated at only +/-.04ppm for accuracy but is very consistent day to day even with the Hanah reagents.I suspect I'm getting much better accuracy than +/- .04ppm but haven't tested it with a reference solution.
 
For your advantage, give a try using HI 93713, put 10ml water in the hanna vial, and use Elos PO4 hi res reagents directly in the hanna vial: 5 drops from reagent 1 and 0,15ml spoon reagent 2. 3 minutes gently mix and then read by photometer. Results will be always the same, w/o any variation.
 
SPS corals hate change. While most people here gave generally good advice, making as many changes as you did could have taken things from bad/stressed to worse/dying. When you started this thread, I thought you had reasonable growth and the look of a Zeovit tank that many try to create on purpose. Had you have just fed a small amount more and changed nothing else, you may have been fine. When is the last time you added a healthy coral? IMO it is much easier to keep healthy coral healthy than to get stressed coral to recover.

I'd run the cuprisorb. It probably won't help, but I don't think it can hurt. I don't know of any other way to verify you don't have copper far enough above NSW to kill stuff in the tank (except very expensive lab grade testing that can detect a few ppb ).

Have you considered you might have a bad salt batch? It isn't so that IO is a bad product, but any manufacture can make mistakes.

Have you ran all your tests (including salinity and temperature) against water from a healthy tank? You say you "have 100% confidence in my test results", I say that is overconfident.

How much algae do you have growing? That might be a better indicator of nutrients than testing. You should need to scrape the tank about once a week (depending how perfect you want to see) - if you don't have any algea growth at all in 1 week, nutrients are too low. If you need to scrape more often, they are too high. Not perfect, but another way to gauge until your issue is fixed.
 
Found out about this this conversation from the switch back to MH thread. I am a biochemist by education but I don't chase numbers very much. In my experience (first reef tank set up in 1988 or so) constant tweaking of many parameters at once has never worked for me. You guys have been working this for a while so if my observations are patently obvious I apologize - just trying to cast a new eye on a serious problem that I too have lived through. I read through the thread but I did it fairly quickly so if I am suggesting things that have been asked and answered I apologize. In my case I never did figure it out so I rebuilt my tank and eliminated many of the things I was doing (biopellets and GAC 24/7 as an example) going back to a more simple setup and other than the redbug issue things have been going well for over a year now. I've only recently started re-introducing GFO.

Three things I consider the most important in an SPS dominated tank are stability, light and flow. I see a lot of GAC in GAC out, polyfilter this, GFO that in this thread in a relatively short period of time, dosing nitrates, dosing zeo. Nothing good happens fast in this hobby and there is no silver bullet.

I also see kalk as alkalinity/calcium supplementation in ATO. Is your ATO capable of dosing frequently like a Tunze Osmolator. If so, I would expect your alkalinity/calcium to be quite stable but if it adds things in bigger batches that is probably less stable. I don't like kalk as an sole additive due to the seasonal variations in evaporation but I do like it in general as I find tanks respond well to it. 2 or 3 part dosing is nice easy way to get stability, especially on a small tank.

I see you have a Vortech but I don't know Vortech well enough to know what turnover you have in the tank. 40x turnover is not that high for SPS. You could probably easily go 50x+

Pests. Have you tried to take some macro shots of your SPS to see if you have pests. My acquisition of a macro lens led to my discovery that I had red bugs. Not enough to destroy but enough to limit growth and colour.

Light - I think that has been discussed fully and I think raising the lights can do nothing but help. They looked way low to me (still could go up a bit by the last picture).

Lack of coralline is interesting. I used to run 2x400W XM10K over my 120 long ago. Could never get coralline to grow above half way up the side of the tank. I assumed that was photo-inhibition but in retrospect I could have been magnesium limited back in those days as I was using IO and never tested.

Using a decent salt really should take care of the trace elements. You could also look to switch from kalk to daily dosing of Bio Calcium if you are worried about it. Again, in a small tank that probably wouldn't be too expensive.

Starvation - another potential issue - given your need to dose nitrate have you considered just getting another couple fish? Many of the TOTM have way more fish than I would ever consider and they seem to do fine. Fish poop feeds SPS seems to be the general thinking.

Adding a grounding probe to just eliminate the possibility of stray voltage will cost you about $20 - really no reason not to just do it on spec.

Toxins - there was an article in Coral magazine a while back that showed a clip on a bag (that would hold carbon or something). Looked like plastic but it had a metal spring on the inside that corroded and screwed up somebody's tank. Could be something as simple as that.

Hope this fresh pair of eyes is of some use...

For reference, this is my tank. It has been a up in it's current form since December 2012. Picture is pre redbug treatment so it is looking up now. Improved growth, way better PE.

11534845594_318cd1346d_b.jpg
 
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You guys have been working this for a while so if my observations are patently obvious I apologize - just trying to cast a new eye on a serious problem that I too have lived through.

No problem. I always welcome a new set of eyes.

Three things I consider the most important in an SPS dominated tank are stability, light and flow. I see a lot of GAC in GAC out, polyfilter this, GFO that in this thread in a relatively short period of time, dosing nitrates, dosing zeo. Nothing good happens fast in this hobby and there is no silver bullet.

I probably shouldn't have changed so many things so quickly, but things were leaning towards a contaminant which is why I added the GAC and PolyFilter. The GFO was pulled offline, because we thought that my tank was nutrient deficient.

I also see kalk as alkalinity/calcium supplementation in ATO. Is your ATO capable of dosing frequently like a Tunze Osmolator. If so, I would expect your alkalinity/calcium to be quite stable but if it adds things in bigger batches that is probably less stable. I don't like kalk as an sole additive due to the seasonal variations in evaporation but I do like it in general as I find tanks respond well to it. 2 or 3 part dosing is nice easy way to get stability, especially on a small tank.

I actually stopped adding Kalk months ago. Since my corals started dying, there has been no need to supplement Calcium or Alkalinity as the tank isn't consuming much, if any.

I see you have a Vortech but I don't know Vortech well enough to know what turnover you have in the tank. 40x turnover is not that high for SPS. You could probably easily go 50x+

Pests. Have you tried to take some macro shots of your SPS to see if you have pests. My acquisition of a macro lens led to my discovery that I had red bugs. Not enough to destroy but enough to limit growth and colour.

Unfortunately, my only camera is a circa 1998 digital camera and my iPhone, neither of which takes even decent pictures of my tank. All coral was dipped prior to introduction.

Light - I think that has been discussed fully and I think raising the lights can do nothing but help. They looked way low to me (still could go up a bit by the last picture).

I moved it up a little the other day. It's probably about 10" off the surface now.

Lack of coralline is interesting. I used to run 2x400W XM10K over my 120 long ago. Could never get coralline to grow above half way up the side of the tank. I assumed that was photo-inhibition but in retrospect I could have been magnesium limited back in those days as I was using IO and never tested.

I've never really been able to grow coralline algae.

Using a decent salt really should take care of the trace elements. You could also look to switch from kalk to daily dosing of Bio Calcium if you are worried about it. Again, in a small tank that probably wouldn't be too expensive.

I use Red Sea. The tank was started with IO, but I switched to the Red Sea about a year ago.

Starvation - another potential issue - given your need to dose nitrate have you considered just getting another couple fish? Many of the TOTM have way more fish than I would ever consider and they seem to do fine. Fish poop feeds SPS seems to be the general thinking.

I just added a new clown that came out of QT. He was put in on Sunday, but he is really small and I doubt would add much to the bioload until he gets bigger. I've been feeding PhytoFeast and OysterFeast for the last few weeks and only dosed Nitrate that one time. At the suggestion of some of the more knowledgable guys that have been helping out, I stopped.

Adding a grounding probe to just eliminate the possibility of stray voltage will cost you about $20 - really no reason not to just do it on spec.

I tested for stray voltage and found none.

Toxins - there was an article in Coral magazine a while back that showed a clip on a bag (that would hold carbon or something). Looked like plastic but it had a metal spring on the inside that corroded and screwed up somebody's tank. Could be something as simple as that.

I haven't been able to find anything, unfortunately.
 
Seems you have covered off everything. I would just tough it out now and see if you can get back to equilibrium. Best of luck.
 
I was away last week for Bike Week in Daytona, so I wasn't able to post an update. Unfortunately, things are getting worse. I lost my blue tort and the rest of my Acros. Everything but a couple Acans, my Hammer Coral and my Frogspawn are dead. I also lost some Zoanthids and my new Trumpet Coral appears to be dying as well. My Scoly is barely holding on, so I don't know how much longer it will survive.

I haven't tested parameters yet, since I just got back. One of my pieces of live rock has started growing what I think is Grape Caulerpa, so there has to be nitrates and phosphates.

I think I might break the tank down..... :sad2:
 
are there any local experts that you know of that could come out and do an in-person assessment? i mean forum people, not LFS's, hopefully would help out for free. there just must be some oversight that isn't getting across in writing.

or even setup a facetime meeting with someone that has an iPad to get a 'virtual tour'.

sorry to hear of the woes!
 
im no expert by any means, but am happy to do a virtual tour as a starting point. i have been through so many issues over the last 3 years i was going insane, but have managed to get a great looking tank going now for the past year. probably some knowledge to transfer.
 
Spyder, I'll give You some info about my tank, which is finally improving and it could be useful to You.
In short, I started 4 months ago from a situation with zero nutrients. I tried to raise them adding food and all corals started to die. In the beginning macroalgae started growing quickly, then even with 2,5ppm NO3, they starved. This situation has gone on for 3 months. Without any hope, after reading this article (read the article linked in the link http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/finding-the-right-balance-of-nutrients-for-corals ), I get convinced my issue was iron deficiency: my foliosa looked exactly like the one in the article; in another article it is demonstrated that removing iron leads stylo to STN. So I started dosing Iron. immediately Stylo STN quitted and in few days acros started growing new tips. Few days later I started dosing also nitrate. In 10 days my tank is changing face. Most of acros have new tips and colors are improving. When I started dosing NO3, I had 0,05ppm PO4 and 0,1ppm NO3. I added in one bolus 0,4ppm NO3 and started administering it continuosly at 0,15ppm per day. After 24h NO3 were still 0,1ppm and PO4 had lowered to 0,02. I am still dosing iron daily and continuosly increasing nitrate dosing (now 0,2ppm per day, and NO3 are still 0,2ppm). I want to reach 1ppm NO3 at least, maybe 2ppm. I also purchased NaPO4 to manage PO4 and keep them in the right ratio with NO3.

I hope it could help.

Luca
 
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