"pastel" colors vs. deep dark coloring

Wow! What a discussion!
I too am arguing the importance of nutrients on this one. Far from being a "modern" reefer, I started out this hobby with a undergravel filter and crushed coral...
My most successful sps tank to date is not my big heavily skimmed tank, but my 58 gallon sps-gorgonian reef, under moderate lighting (one lone unsupplemented 250 w 18K XM fired by PFO magnetic ballast) which is run with a DSB in display and refugium, a tiny portion of often changed carbon, and one really crappy barely working protein skimmer. I have NEVER had a protein skimmer that worked on this friggin tank, I hardly get skimmate, and I know my nutrient load is decent, I feed my corals and the only two fish I have in this tank (mandarin and blenny) often, (2x's daily) and my corals, mixed acros and montis, with seriaoptera and poci thrown in, are all way darker and more vibrant on coloration than my other tank. The polyp extension on them is phenomenal, and I credit it wholly to nutrient levels higher than the average modern tank.
On the other hand, I do frequent large water changes, supplement calcium and alk with homemade A & B style mixes, and maintain a close eye on paremeters. My nitrates are detectable but barely, and I don't let them get crazy.
In my opinion/experience, good flow and good nutrition are more important than good lighting.

Just an opinion, no science involved.
 
I totally agree about nitrogen limitation, and adding fish is a way to enhance the nitrogen level, but let us remember that by overfeeding your fish or overstocking to have a high bioload, you are feeding your corals in two different manners:
1- by the excrement of the fishes, wich is not very rich because most of the nutrients were already taken by thefish.
2- by the leftover food, wich is not much, but fish food is made with leftover fish, algae, and other stuff, that is enriched with vitamins, minerals, and all good things for our fishes.
If you are going to feed the corals in this way, why not feed it directly with plankton, mysis, brine shrimp ect, all enriched.
I ain't saying that having a high bioload is wrong, I have one myself with 16 little guys that aren't so little, but i have a DSB tank and fuge, so the bacterial mass of the tank allow me to have this high quantity of fish, wich I feed once a day with flake food and in the evening i give the some nori, brine shrimp, shrimp, blood worms, etc, changing the components of this meal each day.
And I do feed mine corals every week with an assortment of food, since not much of the fishes food reach my corals, and I do skim normally to balance the amount of poop that the corals and fish produce.
 
feeding with phyto, brine, mysis etc... do the same thing as over feeding fish. both add to po4 levels. the key is adding N without adding P. This addresses nitrogen limitation without increasing P levels to keep cnp ratios good. we dont know what that ratio should be, but we do know we want to keep p low.

if you have pastel colors and want them to darken look into aminos. it's a "clean" nitrogen source.

eric
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9098893#post9098893 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flint&Eric
feeding with phyto, brine, mysis etc... do the same thing as over feeding fish. both add to po4 levels.
Click to expand...

Hmm... I agree with the aminos to a point as being possibly helpful, but I also think... isn't this what water changes are for?

I mean... you can feed heavily, or feed lightly, but either way, if you don't do water changes frequently or at least regularly, your livestock is going to suffer. Not just from nutrient and DOC or DMC overload, but also from depletion. We're really not sure what all chemicals/minerals actually are actively used by corals, and some of the ones we know, we don't understand. Water changes are an invaluable way of not only exporting nutrients, but importing possibly vital chemicals/minerals/compounds of various sorts.

Maybe I'm talking out my butt here, however, I do think that we can balance between having a nutrient poor but sustenance rich aquaria by proper husbandry vs. the random adding of things... not that I don't do my fair share of random adding.

There is so much more that we don't know about corals than what we do know... and what I know of what we know is pathetically small!!! Heh... that is what makes discussions like this fun.
 
Hmm... I agree with the aminos to a point as being possibly helpful, but I also think... isn't this what water changes are for?

I mean... you can feed heavily, or feed lightly, but either way, if you don't do water changes frequently or at least regularly, your livestock is going to suffer. Not just from nutrient and DOC or DMC overload, but also from depletion. We're really not sure what all chemicals/minerals actually are actively used by corals, and some of the ones we know, we don't understand. Water changes are an invaluable way of not only exporting nutrients, but importing possibly vital chemicals/minerals/compounds of various sorts.

Maybe I'm talking out my butt here, however, I do think that we can balance between having a nutrient poor but sustenance rich aquaria by proper husbandry vs. the random adding of things... not that I don't do my fair share of random adding.

There is so much more that we don't know about corals than what we do know... and what I know of what we know is pathetically small!!! Heh... that is what makes discussions like this fun.
Click to expand...

I suppose it depends on on your description of low nutrient. for sps keepers like myself who are after very intense colors and rapid growth the increase in po4 is a big thing to overcome. FWIW, I do weekly 25% WC.

you are correct about the minerals, but what about the food sources of corals. Do SPS corals directly eat phyto, brine, and mysis? Phyto, to some extent...but the last two no. We do know that SPS directly absorb aminos. we also know they help feed some bacs that help maintain low nutrient enviornments.

Our tanks are carbon and nitrogen limited. Why add N and P, when you can just add N? I have a hard time answering questions like these without being too nerdy and start usually start on wild tangents about the mysteries of our hobby :)

Leonardo, where are you? You always handle these questions so well ;)

zuze what do you mean by substance..organic, inorganic, chemical, mineral...?

eric
 
aspartic acid, glutamin, arginine and some other goodies :). I've been using the pappone recipe for about a week now with improved results as well.

I do not care to add zoo or phyto plankton. Bacs from C dosing provides enough food to filter feeders. I really just care about the SPS :)
 
ah you have been following the italian thread. I guess ill throw my pappone in the blender until it gets the particle size to where i think it should be. Do you think the aminos are worth it?
 
Yes, I think I will always dose AA's. I see great improvement and growth from AA's alone. Dont add GNC or other human brand aminos. They are loaded with fillers, not to mention they are used on machinery that process other things...please go out and buy some that are meant for our animals. Fauna Marins ingredients look like a good pick, but I do not have any experience with them.

eric
 
my little tank is nothing to show off...yet! lots of experimentation has taken its toll...but now things are dialed in and I am planning an upgrade.

here's a pic of a new addition...it has since darkened up and already turning a little pink/purple. Notice the darkness of the bottom of the pocci. since using pappone it has gotten much fuller and darker.

DSCF1119.jpg


eric
 
it's a.carolinana

Pat you can see a full tank shot if you ever stop by :) I am waiting to post any full tank pics. doing some sequence photos etc. Partly in response to my old thread.

eric
 
Eric, I think you misunderstood me, I was talking about general corals, because I know that mysis and bryne are way too big for sps, but I won't get mad. Nice point on the po4, wich I was forgetting, but I only had a po4 problem in the very beginning of the tank, but thanks for the heads up.
About the pappone recipe, would you mind posting it here, because the search system is full and I can't seem to find it
Thanks in advance
 
Leonardo, where are you? You always handle these questions so well ;)
Click to expand...

Hey Eric!

I posted this somewhere before, but it makes sense in this thread also:

"After reading a lot about the "Italian Method" (Blu Coral) I think I will start to try this, my way of course. I will explain what I will do:

I want to control the C:N:P ratio in the tank. This is the ratio between Carbon:Nitrogen:Phosphate.
In almost every tank the P is much to high, comparing to the other two.

What will I do and why?

Corals absorb chemicals and feed on small particles to forefill their need for Carbon, Nitrogen and Phosphates.
In aquariums there is way too much Phosphate, compared to Nitrogen and Carbon.
If you add blender mush etc. you provide Nitrogen, some Carbon and Phosphates. So it is hard to change that C:N:P ratio that way.

I want to add Nitrogen in the form of Amino Acids.
I want to add Carbon in the form of Fructose.
I DON'T want to add any Phosphates. (exept for the fish-food)

Result:

When Carbon isn't limited anymore, bacteria will feed on Carbon and also use Phosphates. Phosphate-levels will drop that way. Carbon also support anaerobic bacteria, so the nitrate level will also drop. The increased bacteria in the water will feed the SPS. The rest is skimmed off fast.
Amino Acids will also support bacteria(indirectly feeding SPS), and also feed the SPS directly.

This way, I want to create a nutrient low environment, with plenty of food available for the corals.

The Bare-Bottom method will help me to remove the bacteria (phosphates) and the (unused) Amino Acids fast, and I will still be in control that way."

---------------------

Because of my too sterile tank, my corals were starving because of the lack of food. This mean dissolved nutrients, and food in particles. I came up with the theory above because of that situation.

At this moment I made a slight change in feeding; I do feed Pappone now (adding small amounts of P). I do this because I think it's good to provide some non-dissolved (particle) food, directly to the coral polyps. Pappone also contains a Carbon-source. (sugar/fructose)
The "dissolved feeding" is still done by Amino Acids.

I skim very heavy, and do a 25% WC weekly. I use carbon and GFO also.

My method is not scientifically, I just developed it by closely monitoring my corals, and make small ajustments at a time. Nothing good happens fast!

Leonardo
 
Leonardo-There it is! I knew you had a post that explained it clearly without being too "nerdy". Please, post some pictures, your tank is gorgeous. How are the colors and growth coming with pappone and AA's?

eric
 
The colours were washed out before I was using this method. This was my own fault. I was so afraid of nitrates and phosphates, that I was running my tank almost "sterile". Even coraline algae wouldn't grow. (no, not even in less light areas)
The corals were pale, didn't grow and had poor PE. Some even STN after a while. (all the params were good, and no big KH changes or something)

After losing a big colony, I slowly began to feed more and more to my fish. I also added some fish. (had only 2 in a 92 gallon) But I continued with strong wet skimming, BB and large WC.

Things went better, but it still was not perfect. Then the Italian thread started, and with that the AA discussion began. That was the moment I started to feed like I described above.

Colours are much better now, some still pastel. Growth is good now. Stags grow almost 1" a month. Maybe more in the future. My LPS like it also, Favia is forming new polyps fast.

FTS24-01-2.jpg


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Leonardo
 
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