"pastel" colors vs. deep dark coloring

While sps may not eat mysis and brine in their full grown size, they certainly do eat phytoplankton and larval crustaceans on the micro zooplankton side of the house. They also eat copepods, as a matter of fact, there is a pretty cool shot on the BBC series The Blue Planet (Coral Seas show I believe) of an acro eating copepods.
What I meant by nutrient poor but sustenance rich, was an environment which provides the food which corals naturally eat, such as live phytoplankton and live copepods, but which is not overwhelmed with excess nutrients in the form of phosphate and nitrates.
I think inherent to this arguement is what exactly each reef keeper is seeking. I tend to follow Eric Bornemans school of thought, that rapid growth is not necessarily a sign of health, and I prefer my corals to have robust growth and strong coloration vs incredible growth. To me, I'd rather see good thick skeletons and sweet polyp extension, than gain an inch a month. Which is why I tend to keep reef like I do. The way I look at it, feeding amino acids and not live phyto and microzooplankton is much like drinking Ultra Slim Fast instead of beer and steak... it'll save some pounds and it might be healthy, but it just isn't as satisfying!
I do think that most of the phyto-based foods out there are junk, and the same with the invert foods. I can see where you would have such a negative image of the importance of phyto if all you ever used was the stuff in a bottle... I strongly suggest culturing it yourself. The culturing of rotifers is a current project of mine, so far, I haven't seen anything bad happen of it, although it hasn't been going on long enough to see if anything good is up either!!!
Either case, there's more than one way to skin a cat, and more ways than a thousand to grow a reef!!! So far, my way seems to work for what I want to accomplish, and I'm checking out everybody else's way to see what I can learn. If there's one thing that stands out most about reefkeeping, other than the price tag, it's how much there is to learn.

And Leonardo... what a gorgeous tank! I look forward to mine reaching that point! All my corals started as frags about quarter sized, a lot of them were throw aways from other reefers for brown color, tissue recession, etc. Yours though, wow!!! Something to be said for Ultra Slim Fast in the right combo!


jan07topdown-1.jpg
 
Thanks, your tank is very nice too, very nice caps! Reached this size with frags, my compliments.

Don't understand me wrong, I also think growth is not everything. I also want full colony's and thick branches.
But for me growth is a good indication, because I had no growth before. I think I'm on the right track - my staghorns are forming many new branches. (my tank almost only consists Staghorns)

Live Zooplankton can provide a very good foodsource, but only if they are gut-loaded with HUFA's, proteins, fytoplankton etc. Otherwise the nutritional value is limited.

I think pappone forms a good substitute. It provides protein, HUFA's and phytoplankton for sure. Also it is a method that shown to be beneficial for quite a time.

What works better? I don't know. I don't think that we have to focus on that. "SPS" need more then light, we all share that thought. :)

Leonardo
 
I agree with both the amino acids and small plankton for feeding SPS. When I started using Seachem's product early last year my colors deepened and my growth exploded. My stags got real thick branches.

My LFS started carrying a "reef stew". Basically it is the green water a local clownfish breeder uses for his fry. It's full of rotifers, copepods, phyto. I try to get some every week. My corals get a very strong feeding response(as well as my young wrasses). On the off weeks the stew is sold out I use DT's oyster eggs.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9104524#post9104524 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zuzecawi
While sps may not eat mysis and brine in their full grown size, they certainly do eat phytoplankton and larval crustaceans on the micro zooplankton side of the house.
I always understood that Acropora consumed little to zero of Phytoplankton [plant-based]. Has the common belief changed regarding this?

As far as brine/mysis - putting through a blender/crushing/chopping should make it just fine sized for corals. If it's just particle size, than any DIY fish food [Pappone or not] should provide it [most are blended].
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9105825#post9105825 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Philwd
I agree with both the amino acids and small plankton for feeding SPS. When I started using Seachem's product early last year my colors deepened and my growth exploded. My stags got real thick branches.

My LFS started carrying a "reef stew". Basically it is the green water a local clownfish breeder uses for his fry. It's full of rotifers, copepods, phyto. I try to get some every week. My corals get a very strong feeding response(as well as my young wrasses). On the off weeks the stew is sold out I use DT's oyster eggs.

Phil,

Do you get the amino acids locally or On-Line?

Thanks,

Mike
 
Mike,
Both. Usually on-line but if I don't have a fair sized order I'll just go to ATR. Only a few $ more. And I pick up the reef stew at the same time. :D
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9105889#post9105889 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MiddletonMark
I always understood that Acropora consumed little to zero of Phytoplankton [plant-based]. Has the common belief changed regarding this?

In a few recent books now, notably those by Paletta, Borneman, and Calfo, it is stated that phytoplankton probably makes up a bigger portion of coral nutrition than previously thought. Is it a law? Nope. Just a speculation based on coral growth with introduction of phyto vs. coral growth without. I think Anthony Calfo went into it the most in his book about coral aquaculture (titles are evading me here). Nilsen covered it as well in Reef Secrets unless I'm mistaken (I could be, wouldn't be the first time I confused books). Also, it is covered in biology texts, and I believe it's mentioned as well on the BBC Coral Seas video. Not that I believe everything I see on TV...
unless it's about Elvis. In the Bahamas. On the Jenny Craig diet. Then it MUST be true!
 
I was just referring to previous Borneman articles [among others] where he pretty emphatically states that Acropora doesn't appear to eat any significant phyto.

Calfo doesn't have the backround to make many of the claims he does, nor does he often provide sources for his info ... so IMO, I disregard his claims.
 
Where is the thread that discusses how to make your own aminos? Right now I am spending big $$ on the Zeovit Aminos and definitely would prefer to make my own if that was a cheap alternative.
 
Amazing thread. I've gotta keep up on this one. What a hot topic on these boards lately. I'll throw my experience out there.

100g, use the Ultralith system, feed cyclopeze (quite a bit) 3x a week, feed my 6 fish daily (twice a day on the weekends), and run 6x54w Tek T5. My orange cap and green slimer are growing great, and are starting to look pastel. Very healthy and happy, but they are changing color. My tenius on the other hand, has had its blue tips become a much richer blue, almost a purple. So not all of my colors are going towards pastel, but some are.

I'm waiting till I upgrade my skimmer so that I can begin feeding hopefully 2xplanton-size food and 1xfish food daily. I think the more corals get the chance to eat, the better. I'd love to try Middletown Mark's ideas of blendering some things, but my skimmer is a bit behind handling that yet.

PS. I've also heard SPS will not eat phyto or any plant-like foods either.
 
SPS don't eat phyto, Sorokin did a lot of work in this area to determine what makes up the energy budgets of many corals and phyto wasn't consumed by 'sps' species. Regardless of what is said in the hobby, science has proven otherwise.

I am interested in the pappone as well. Leonardo, I would question the assumption that our corals are Carbon starved as this is the main product that is translocated from the zoox to their host coral. I also believe that our tanks are N starved, hence fish poo being one (of many potential) solutions of providing the source of N. To play devils advocate though, in the third Sprung/Delbeek book where Delbeek provides nutrients levels for an experimental tank employing Jaubert style plenum (with big skimmer too). The DON levels are far above NSW. Any thoughts?
 
When did fish excrement get labeled as nutritionally void? My understanding was quite the opposite. It is a broken down and separated carbon and protein source that turned into P04 only after it broke down in the sand or anywhere else it lands and doesn't get consumed. Also I believe that what you put in the fish is going to come out. Pellets and flake are things that I never use. I am confident that most if not all of them are fillers and crap. I like the idea of puree mush and using good fresh seafood. I also agree that corals can and do consume zooplankton and pods, but they also consume detritus as well. Pods are a reefers best friend and we will try to produce as many as possible so that they keep our systems clean. This is all a big cycle.
 
From page 23 of the italian thread. I found this, hopefully it is current.

“Pappone” Recipe â€"œ Italian Coral Food (Updated 12/20/2006)

Materials:
5 Oysters
5 Mussels
5 Clams
5 Shrimp (NOT cocktail shrimp, the big scampi type w/o the head and the shell)
1 Tablespoon of Sugar
200 mL of RO/DI water
10 g of Red Algae (Palmaria palmata; Bisck uses Julian Sprung's brand)
and/or 10 g of Spirulina, 10 g of Nori (spirulina is what Bisck prefers)

Methods: Make SURE that all ingredients are the freshest possible and DO NOT use frozen foods (unless it is impossible for you). Make sure everything "live" is rinsed and cleaned before putting it into the blender. Put all the ingredients into the blender and blend for 5 min, wait 2 min for it to cool, 5 more min blending, 2 min of waiting again, then finally another 5 min of blending (the pausing is so that the solution doesn't get too hot and "cook" from the heat of the blender/blades). Pour into cube forms (approx 10 mL each). Then freeze it allâ€"you want to minimize how long everything is at room temperature.

Procedure: One hour prior to turning off your lights, you have the option of adding Amino acids to the tank*. (For example, 11pm Halides off, add AA’s, 12am, actinics off, then add pappone). Take off the cup of your skimmer, but leave the skimmer running (so you don’t have a massive drop in O2 levels overnight). After the lights are off, start with only a ¼ of a cube per WEEK for every 400 L of tank water (approx 100 gallons). Be sure to measure NO3 and PO4 the next morning so that these parameters don't spike after feeding. You can reduce the amount fed if you are having nutrient problems. Also don’t forget to put the skimmer cup back on the next morning before the lights go back on.

*If everything is going well. It is good to wait and see how the tank is doing for awhile before trying this. The whole point here is that you don't want to change anything too fast, because nothing good happens quickly in this hobby. (Another method to grind up amino acid pills in the next batch of food; however Bisck found that it sometimes causes diatom outbreaks in his tank).
 
When did fish excrement get labeled as nutritionally void?

it never did. we are trying to supplement this. one way of looking at it is "overstocking" our tanks without fish...without having to worry about the breakdown into P.

Leonardo, I had a very simmilar approach. I was very prudent in feedings and was overly concerned with my N and P that colors were extremely light and I experienced STN problems too. I knew I was screwing up when I could no longer get my a. nana to grow, not to mention caused it to lose its purple tips.

Since dosing my AA's and feeding pappone it has started growing again and has it's vibrant purple tips back :)

Kurt- you could be talking about my old thread. There isnt much out there that is "safe". Most aminos have lots of fillers such as yeast and stearates. If you can buy some through a medical/lab company thats your best bet...but hard to track down.

eric
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9108825#post9108825 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by speedstar
From page 23 of the italian thread. I found this, hopefully it is current.

“Pappone” Recipe â€"œ Italian Coral Food (Updated 12/20/2006)

Materials:
5 Oysters
5 Mussels
5 Clams
5 Shrimp (NOT cocktail shrimp, the big scampi type w/o the head and the shell)
1 Tablespoon of Sugar
200 mL of RO/DI water
10 g of Red Algae (Palmaria palmata; Bisck uses Julian Sprung's brand)
and/or 10 g of Spirulina, 10 g of Nori (spirulina is what Bisck prefers)

Methods: Make SURE that all ingredients are the freshest possible and DO NOT use frozen foods (unless it is impossible for you). Make sure everything "live" is rinsed and cleaned before putting it into the blender. Put all the ingredients into the blender and blend for 5 min, wait 2 min for it to cool, 5 more min blending, 2 min of waiting again, then finally another 5 min of blending (the pausing is so that the solution doesn't get too hot and "cook" from the heat of the blender/blades). Pour into cube forms (approx 10 mL each). Then freeze it allâ€"you want to minimize how long everything is at room temperature.

Procedure: One hour prior to turning off your lights, you have the option of adding Amino acids to the tank*. (For example, 11pm Halides off, add AA’s, 12am, actinics off, then add pappone). Take off the cup of your skimmer, but leave the skimmer running (so you don’t have a massive drop in O2 levels overnight). After the lights are off, start with only a ¼ of a cube per WEEK for every 400 L of tank water (approx 100 gallons). Be sure to measure NO3 and PO4 the next morning so that these parameters don't spike after feeding. You can reduce the amount fed if you are having nutrient problems. Also don’t forget to put the skimmer cup back on the next morning before the lights go back on.

*If everything is going well. It is good to wait and see how the tank is doing for awhile before trying this. The whole point here is that you don't want to change anything too fast, because nothing good happens quickly in this hobby. (Another method to grind up amino acid pills in the next batch of food; however Bisck found that it sometimes causes diatom outbreaks in his tank).

Am I missing something or is this nothing more than fish food? Those ingredients are the same that are found in many common fish foods and certainly dont sound like anything special to me. The idea of adding aminos is adding food w/out adding phosphates. ALL those ingredients will also add lots of phosphate to your tank. It sounds to me that just puree these ingredients will just create one big nutrient bomb....
 
I suggest reading the italian thread. pappone is just a seafood mush blend. it is used at night time sparingly to help nourish the corals. the PE is absolutely incredible. In well maintained tanks, there is no noticeable increase in levels. The next morning my skimmer is full and it skims it right out. These ingredients only add po4 when they break down. by adding a fine mush, there are no large particles to rot and it is absorbed by the animals....the rest quickly filtered out.

this is to temporarily elevate nutrient levels to nourish the corals without having to deal with time bombs. there is nothing special about the ingredients...but together they do work quite well. please read up more about it...

eric
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9108589#post9108589 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DaddyJax
When did fish excrement get labeled as nutritionally void? My understanding was quite the opposite. It is a broken down and separated carbon and protein source that turned into P04 only after it broke down in the sand or anywhere else it lands and doesn't get consumed. Also I believe that what you put in the fish is going to come out. Pellets and flake are things that I never use. I am confident that most if not all of them are fillers and crap. I like the idea of puree mush and using good fresh seafood. I also agree that corals can and do consume zooplankton and pods, but they also consume detritus as well. Pods are a reefers best friend and we will try to produce as many as possible so that they keep our systems clean. This is all a big cycle.

Fish poo is a source of N and most likely P, no C. Corals get that from their zoox.
 
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