Poll: Any self sustaining long term tanks ot there? No frequent water changes, etc

fantastic4

New member
have read a few posts on tanks where some have managed to create perfect or near perfect water quality tanks with full balanced cycle. 0 on nitrite, 0 nitrate, etc. with no or few water changes. now these posts usually were replied with many flame posts on how the water quality will eventually crash the system, etc etc... in theory a self sustaining system sounds possible with a successfull nitrate extraction system like dsb with chaeto. has anyone accomplished this and can you post your findings, perhaps also post pictures of tank and setup?
 
It's easier, cheaper, and healthier to do water changes. Trace mineral supplements are very expensive compared to salt.
 
Truly self-sustaining systems can be made in any size (they still need light). But you can't include just anything. It must be an appropriate mix of things such that the system will be balanced. You could make a self sustaining enclosed box the size of thimble, with some algae, very small algae eating invertebrates and microbes, but there isn’t much to see without a magnifying glass or microscope. The whole earth is also self-sustaining.

A typical aquarium size will also work. I kept a 20L reef tank as an almost closed system for 26 months. The experiment ended due to me moving. It was powered by a small pump that also pulled in air venturi style and a 65W compact fluorescent 10K light. The light was timed so that it was on for 14 hours a day. The top was covered with glass so that it was water-tight, but not airtight. I lost about 1/4 inch of water in over 2 years to evaporation.

This tank had no feeding and no water changes. The recycling of nutrients was accomplished by including a balanced assortment of plants and animals.
It had about 2 1/2 inches of aragonite gravel and maybe 20-25 lbs of live rock. There were originally 7 species of Caulerpa, 3 survived the entire period (Taxifolia, Racemosa, and Prolifera). The tank also had hair and bubble algae, as well as many micro-algaes. These micro-algaes were very heavily grazed by pods so they were not normally around in visible quantities. The side-glass would remain clear from micro-algae, but calcerous algae, tube worms, and other encrusting organisms grew on it in great numbers.

The large motile invertebrates were an emerald crab, a skunk cleaner shrimp, and 5 sand sifting snails. The cleaner shrimp died after about 8 months possibly to predation, the others survived the 26 months.

There were a great number of bristle worms, amphipods, isopods, copepods, tube worms, tube snails, tiny sponges, and other typical reef dwelling creatures. Aptasia were excluded.

Yellow button polyps, zooanthids, and mushroom polyps were included. The button polyps and zooanthids reproduced by cloning. The zooanthids grew in number from 6 to over 30. The mushroom polyps lived and grew a little, but did not split.

The top predators were a six-line wrasse, a picture dragonet, and an Atlantic pygmy angel. These fish were each about 2 inches long. All three fish were very fat and healthy but did not grow significantly larger in the 26 months of no food.

This proves that it is possible to do maintain a reef tank by doing absolutely nothing but paying the electricity bill. Of course if the algae grows were you don’t want it to you would have to intervene or patiently wait, possible months, for it to be eaten.

I have kept all of my tanks both fresh and saltwater with zero water changes for over ten years now. I find that no trace elements need be added except iodine. I use Lugol’s solution. Large crustaceans tend to die in 6 months to a year with no water changes if iodine is not added. They seem to get stuck while shedding their skin and are attacked and eaten while vulnerable. Pulsing Xenia will stop pulsing if iodine is not added, other anemone- like creatures may also be adversely effected but they don’t die. Growth of hard corals will be extremely slow with no water changes after the first few months if no calcium carbonate is added. They will be limited to growing at the rate the gravel and live rock dissolves. If high calcium and pH are maintained (I used kalkwasser for top-off of evaporation) they grow can very quickly and many a frag can double in size in 6 months. Hence pruning is required.

Filtration is accomplished by plant growth. The best option by far is an algal turf scrubber, but nutrient export with any type of algae is sufficient to keep coral alive long term. I have seen no evidence that other trace elements are needed.
 
2.5 years skimmerless with very very infrequent water changes. I keep seahorses and macro algae. The only corals are a few shrooms and a hitchiker chili coral. Most people would not like my tank.

I actually need to dose nitrates from time to time to keep my macro growing.

Eric Borneman has kept a large multi tank coral system going for years without regular water changes or skimming.

It can be done regardless of what others may say.

Fred
 
Galilean: Very interesting read. Do you have any pictures? Any advice on the avenue? I am in the process of starting a pico tank and want to leave it completely alone after I stock it to see where it goes. Thanks.
 
Ok I posted in the general forum about running skimmerless and got three no's. I don't mean to hijack this thread but it seems that I am interested in the same situation. I am not trying to be lazy and not take care of my tank. I enjoy that very much. I don't touch my tank very often other than topping off each day but I am more interested in reaching a balanced system.
 
I ran my 35 hex from September, 2001 to March, 2006 without a skimmer or even a water change. In fact, I didn't even feed the fish during that time ( I had just one occupant . . a lemonpeel angel). He grazed the live rock for pods and algae.

The lights were on a timer and I just topped off the water with tap water as needed.

In March of this year the lemonpeel died and I decided to to upgrade the tank (including lighting) to start a mini reef. Of course, I now do regular water changes.
 
Galilean, that was an amazing post. Floored.

Fredfish, SeaHorses are very hard to keep. I'm very confident most would love your tank. SeaHorse enthusiasts would probably kill to learn your technqiues.

eskymick, 5 years with no food and an angel! Very interesting, sounds like you found balance as well.

KafudaFish, I agree. I would prefer to spend the time and money on a setup that was healthy and self sufficient thus releasing time back to me. It just seems logical to have a system that is self supportive and "thriving." If you run into problems you can always step in and manually balance things out, else just watch and enjoy. A perfect system to me would include 100% nutrient export, no algae out breaks, auto pod feeding, very few or no water changes need. Only dosing iron/iodine/vitamins once or twice a month, replacing evaporation with kalk water as needed, cleaning glass with magnet and feeding if you see issues with not enough food. Simply enjoy a flourishing tank without routine weekday/weekend chores that requires you to be home all the time.
 
I run a relatively maintainence free reef tank. My maintainence is about ten minutes a week. I dump the skimmer cup, rinse the filter pad, and dump in five gallons of RO water.

Every few months I do a 30 gallon water change. I also test every few months and find all parameters seem to be stable. The only additives are B-ionic about once a week.

So far, everyone seems happy, healthy, and stable.
 
I'm at the one year marker. 300 gal. 0 nitrate 0 phosphate. I have a nitrate reduction chamber and macro algae. I feed my fish Formula II and Cyclopeze once or twice a week.

I have gone 2 months without feeding the fish. Like someone else stated I find myself adding a source for nitrate. I have 3 of the fattest yellow tangs you'll ever see. My Zoas are spreading nicely.

I have about 500 lbs of live rock , a 3 inch sand bed, and a skimmer that barely works.

At the 6 month marker my nitrates where around 40 ppm. they went to 0 without water changes.
 
Kafudafish. Read this thread on another site. It is 3 pages of well thought out commentary and observations of skimmerless tanks. Its where us heratics hang out. ;)

fantastic4. While my tank is an excellent environment for seahorses, it is, buy most people's standards, butt ugly. (Some) Seahorses are not hard to keep, but thats another discussion.

Its interesting, the things people have done successfully. I had forgotten the time I ran my former 65 gallon for 8 months without feeding. The lone P. fridmani was quite fat and happy and kept the bristle worm population under control.

One observation I will add is that I think that in a system like this, as time moves on, the system's biological capacity seems to increase. My horses breed regularly and I have had fry survive in the refugium several times. A year ago, I had one survive between two and three months before it starved. I now have a 4+ month old horse that is still going strong and am surprised by the number of pods that are still living in the refugium.

Acrylic_300. What fish do you have in your system? I noticed the same thing about nitrates when my tank was younger. I added my horses when the tank was 4 months old. Nitrates climbed to ~20 and then gradually declined as macros established themselves. When I feed mysis to my tank, I just drop in a frozen chunk (one to two cubes worth per day). All the juices and fine particles feed the other life in the tank.
 
I don’t have my own camera yet so all pictures have to come from borrowing one. However, I do have some pictures of a couple zero-water change tanks at my dad’s house. The 40 gal reef is filtered by caluerpa growing in the tank and has had zero water changes for about 5 years now. The 70 gal reef is filtered by an ATS I designed and built and has never had a water change. It is about 1 year old now.
115674tank_pics_001_small.jpg

115674ATS_002_small.jpg


In general skimmers are detrimental to reef tanks that are naturally filtered by plant growth, despite their widespread popularity. Lower nutrient levels are achieved by algae based filtration than are ever possible with a skimmer. Skimmers remove the plankton that is the base of the reef food chain. They take out the natural food of corals and remove the larval forms of most reef creatures. However, bladed pumps already kill 90% of your plankton. So unless you use a bladeless method for circulation removing the skimmer won’t get you anywhere near natural plankton levels. Non-plankton killing methods would include bladeless pumps (see discflo.com), air lift, some wave makers, Archimedes screws, some large, slow-moving volumetric piston pumps, etc.

It is possible to setup the perfect no maintenance situation (no feeding, no harvesting, little micro-algae growth in the tank, long term) in a small box. But you must seal it air tight and have some portion of the system always lighted. Without harvesting of algae the algae will continue to increase indefinitely by removing nutrients from the air if you don’t make it completely self-contained.
Since there is no air being pumped in at night, you must always have light unless the system is mostly plants. You could risk the running out of oxygen and accept the chemical instability of the day-night pH swing, but it’s better to have some portion always lighted. Also the stocking levels will have to be low since there is no outside source of nutrients.

With large nutrient export via plants very heavy stocking is possible with no water changes. I kept a 20 gal reef very heavily stocked and fed for about 8 months filtered with a 10 gal caulerpa refugium. I fed heavily 3 times a day frozen, flake and pellet foods. This included 12 green chromis, 3 blue yellow tail damsels, 1 four-stripe damsel, 1 domino damsel, 1 kole tang, 1 convict tang, 1 yellow tang, 1 falco hawkfish, 2 chalk basslets, 1 royal gramma, 1 six-line wrasse, 1 atlantic pygmy angel, 2 large Hawaiian hermits, 5 red reef hermits, 12 blue reef hermits, 2 emerald crabs, 3 peppermint shrimp, and 1 skunk cleaner shrimp. On ATS filtered fish farms densities of over 1 lb of fish per gallon are achieved for tilapia.

I think most people will be happier with feeding and nutrient export rather than a closed system, but the completely closed system is an interesting challenge.

My experience is that any fish only tank with normal stocking density will be adequately filtered by simply providing good lighting and including plants the fish do not eat or destroy. Unless you have anemone-like creatures no other filtration is ever needed, and most soft coral will live, grow, and reproduce without anything being done besides letting some micro-algae grow in the tank. The preceding paragraph presumes no water changes.

Now, I am making some implicit assumptions in what I said. So let it be understood that I am including excellent quality live rock (already full of live adult detrivores of every description). For fish only tanks I have found that this is not necessary, but for coral you can’t just wait for bacteria to break down uneaten food and excrement. Bristle worms are probably the most important contributors, but ideally you want a wide diversity of mouth sizes and appetites.
 
Acrylic_300. What fish do you have in your system?
3 blue/green chromis, 3 yellow tangs, 1 maroon clown, 3 pajama cardinals, 1 jeweled blenny, 1 green mandarin, 1 six line wrase, 1 flame angel. It is strange...when I increase feeding the tang's bellys shrink.

This is 2 months without food in this pic.
Corals+002.jpg

Too many free meals are not good.
Corals.jpg

This Zoanthid started with 6 polyps and is now over 100 in just 11 months.
acrylic_300 what type/brand nitrate reduction system are you using?
It has no brand name someone must have built it. It's sort of simple....two 1 gallon chambers stuffed tight with filter...water moves slowly through the chambers at a rate of about 20-30 gal a day. It trickles in from an air valve off a main water line then trickles out to the protien skimmer (to be re-oxygenated).

My theory on this is that the live rock probably did more work than the denitrator.
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8274438#post8274438 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by acrylic_300
It is strange...when I increase feeding the tang's bellys shrink.

I have noticed the same thing in tanks with low stocking levels, fish tend to appear fatter after not being fed for a long time. I think artificial feeding interferes with natural foraging and hunting behavior. This is especially true in the case of something like a tang that normally eats all the time. No matter how well you feed a fish it seems it can always do a better job of feeding itself if you just make the food available. Of course, if there isn't enough food growing in the tank it won't work.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8273261#post8273261 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Galilean
I. I kept a 20 gal reef very heavily stocked and fed for about 8 months filtered with a 10 gal caulerpa refugium. I fed heavily 3 times a day frozen, flake and pellet foods. This included 12 green chromis, 3 blue yellow tail damsels, 1 four-stripe damsel, 1 domino damsel, 1 kole tang, 1 convict tang, 1 yellow tang, 1 falco hawkfish, 2 chalk basslets, 1 royal gramma, 1 six-line wrasse, 1 atlantic pygmy angel, 2 large Hawaiian hermits, 5 red reef hermits, 12 blue reef hermits, 2 emerald crabs, 3 peppermint shrimp, and 1 skunk cleaner shrimp.

I dont care who you are, those fish and the amount of them should not be in anything under 150 gallons. You had 26 fish in a 20 gallon tank, three of which were tangs. Thats just wrong.
 
Galilean, thats quite a fish load to maintain in such a small tank. Amazing what algae will filter out.

Acrylic_300. When you don't feed, what do the green chromis feed on? Do they pick at pods on the rocks?

Fred
 
Acrylic_300. When you don't feed, what do the green chromis feed on? Do they pick at pods on the rocks?

The 3 young ones have learned how to cope...they hunt for pods
in the green hair algae. Two larger ones were not able to adapt and died.

I feel kinda bad about it...but I could not catch them.
 
its possible! depends entire on your setup like said before.

I do 50% water changes every 4-6 months on my 60 gallon. The tank is a FOWLR setup. There are only three fish, two shrimp, 3 snails and 2 hermits in this tank. If you keep that bioload low and NOTHING (food) goes to waste in your tank, its possible to really stretch out those water changes.

happy reefin'

Also to the man with three tangs in a 20 gallon. YIKES! I have tangs in my 60.....and frankly thats not big enough IMO.
 
Fred: Thanks for the link. I will look more closely later when I have more time. Are you on NR too? Just curious and thanks again.
 
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