Recession turn-around...A corals story.

[TA]

Here's a story I thought worth telling. Maybe others can learn something from it.

It concerns some issues I've been having with my tank since I first set it up...some of you are familiar with certain aspects of this story, others not...but there have been some developments lately, and I thought it worth explaining in some detail and getting some opinions.

After having my tank set up for a month or so (BB, with starboard bottom), my calcium levels were always low (around 350), but my alk levels were fine (around 10). Salt...IO. All that I've read suggested that dripping kalk to make up for evaporation was a well accepted method for increasing calcium and alk....so I began to do so and decided not to go the DIY 2-part/B-Ionic route since I knew that I would soon be setting up a calcium reactor. So I began to drip kalk constantly to make up for evaporative losses...about 1-2 gal/day.

After a few months of doing so, and checking parameters (note: my amm, trites, trates always read 0 when tested, so after a while, I stopped testing), I noticed my calcium really never changed, but my alk continued to rise:

Alk: initially, 10; slowly rose to 20!
Calcium: 350-380
pH a bit on the high side (8.4-8.5 during the day; 8.2 nite)
(wasn't really measuring Mg or PO4 at the time)

All the while, I was acquiring quite a few frags of SPS, including a couple of very large stag colonies. I was never quite happy with the coloration nor the growth based on what I've seen (in person as well as in online pics)...clearly though, conditions were not optimal...corals were growing, just very slowly. I assumed that it was most likely due to either high alk or low calcium, although it may have been due to PO4 or something else (pests etc...).

I eventually got my calcium reactor hooked up, tuned it, and calcium levels began to rise to around 420 and were stable there ever since. Alk was still abnormally high, but pH more stable around 8.1-8.3.

With the reactor online, I decided to stop dripping kalk...very reasonable...and after a few months, all parameters seemed just about perfect:

Calcium: 420 (Salifert)
Alk: 11-12 (two different kits; one Salifert)
pH 8.15-8.30 (I use a "lab grade" meter; continuous read)
Mg: 1320 (Salifert)
PO4: between "0" and lowest value; closer to "0" (Salifert)

Somewhere along the way, I had to treat for flat worms (FWE) and Red bugs (Interceptor); thought that the RB may be partial contributer to the problem, although unlikely since the infestation was relatively small.

Well, sometime around early December, I noticed that my large stag colonies (in particular) and some encrusted frags from the same colonies, as well as some other acro frags that had encrusted 1/2" to 1" (albeit, very slowly...some over 8 months!)...all at the same time began to show base recession (can measure it almost daily). I pretty much ruled out flow and light (frags in high flow/high light as well as larger colonies which may have been shaded from light and flow all showing same signs). Interestingly, my millis and montis all seemed "resistant"...growth in some slow...some a bit better...but no recession.

Started to "research" on RC...could be any of a number of reasons, but assumed its not calcium, Mg, alk (although a bit high, assumed 'ok'), RB, light, flow, salinity (remember I asked about cross-checking refractometers/hydrometers?), temperature...etc...

Started reading alot about Acro-eating FW. Symptoms sounded very similar. Eventually, I ruled them out as well (not 100%, but almost sure). So, at this point, I was pretty much convinced that the route of the problem was tank chemistry. But what?!?!

Turned my attention back to alk levels, since thats where I seemed to have the most "trouble". At first I thought that because my alk was reading 12 for so long, I worried that high alk levels may be the cause...posted the question in SPS forum and was pretty much told that those alk levels should not be a problem.

But I couldn't help thinking about the alk levels....remembering that when I was dosing kalk, although growth/color not great and alk was very high, "things" were much better (no base recession).

So.....after seeing Dan's thread and Pics of his 150...seeing how much coraline he had in there for sucha relatively short period of time (btw, he's BB too) compared to how very little I have...I was even more convinced that the problem lie in tank chemistry. I was surprised to learn that besides a calcium reactor, he also drips kalk and uses DIY 2-part.

At this point, I figured I had nothing to lose and I decided to go back to using kalk and dosing DIY 2-part as well..regardless of what the calcium/alkalinity test kits say. Figure that my corals are a better judge of tank chemistry and I decided to let them "tell" me.

Started using kalk for all evaporation make-up and adding 1/4 cup each DIY 2-part for exactly 11 days as of this post...

ALL recession completely stopped...ALL encrusted frags that were receding began to re-encrust, some grew fast enough to recover all tissue lost over the last 3 months...tips on my acros are beginning to grow/color-up...its literally unbeleivable. I'm amazed at the changes that I am seeing in only 11 days!

Definately, the problem was related either directly or indirectly to calcium and/or alkalinity levels that could be corrected for by kalk and/or DIY 2-part (not sure which).

So, obviously you see why I am confussed...test kits say calcium and alkalinity levels are fine (420 and 12, respectively), but after using kalk and 2-part, my corals are telling me that those levels were not fine. Guess I will continue to use kalk and 2-part, listen to my corals, and discard my test kits.

Any comments?

Thanks for taking time to read.

 

[jallard]

my tank is a mixed tank but I do have decent growth even with my sps frags. I have coraline growing all over and the back of my tank is pretty much 70% covered in coraline. I was confused about my cal level because my level was always off the chart. My tests showed my cal well over 550. The only thing I do is regular water changes....

Reguardless high cal levels are a good thing....not even sure if too much is possible

 

[mikeatjac]

I believe that that a calcium reactor is great but alone it is not enough. A CR when set up properly is a thing of beauty. However, it can not supply all that a tank needs. With weekly water changes little but mag is needed. I don't do weekly changes but rather bi monthly. So I reduced the output on my CR and every 2 or three days I add 2 part. My corals have never been happier.

 

[Ken668]

I'm actually thinking it might be another deficiency. I know alot of the retail 2-parts have other trace elements in them (not sure what exactly you're using). Maybe there are a couple that your CR couldn't produce enough of, but the addition of the 2-part brings them up to proper levels? Just a thought.

 

[TA]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6939480#post6939480 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ken668
...not sure what exactly you're using.

Using Randy's New recipe for DIY 2-part.
...and kalk.

 

[DanConnor]

I assume you do regular water changes, right?

I don't really understand water chemistry well enough to have a clear analysis, but I can make a couple of comments.

It's more important to maintain high alk than high calcium. The corals really don't care if they get their 10 out of 350 or 420. I tend to always have low calcium despite all my strategies. 350 would be typical. Also its very difficult to maintain both high alk and high CA at the same time.

 

[TA]

Water changes...been doing about ~10-15% weekly changes over the last few months in an attempt to solve the problem. Not until I started dosing did I see a clear change.

Again, what got me is that the test kits for calcium and alk (two different alk kits agreed with one another) suggest that they were well within acceptable levels...THATS what confused me. The fact that dosing dramatically helped/reversed the recession suggests that most likely the problem was with one or both calcium/alkalinity levels.

 

[Ken668]

Tony, let me ask you this. Now that you have started dosing, what are your levels currently looking like? Have they remained the same? Is your alk back up above ~15?

 

[vmiller]

Interesting Tony! At the least, it's good to hear things are going better. However, I can't imagine the scientist in you being content not knowing the exact cause.

 

[TA]

Ken, I'll check tonite.

Vin...you know it! I'm happy about it, but iritated at the same time.

 

[jaze36]

Tony do you check your ORP? Here are my thoughts and theorys on the matter. When you were dosing kalk previously you were reducing the amount of CO2 in the water. Calcium hydroxide(kalk) when put in the tank combines with co2 to form bicarbonate, reducing the level of co2 in the tank. When you stoped dosing kalk you increased the level of co2 in the tank, then added a calcium reactor again increasing the levels of co2 in the tank. I think this would reduce the o2 levels in yuor tank, starving the corals of oxygen and slowly over time causeing the recession. When you started to dose the kalk again you raised your o2 by useing up more of the co2 in the reaction with the kalk.

What do you guys think. I am no chemiest just trying to put together pieces of the puzzle from articles I have read.

 

[jaze36]

Another sign of increased co2 is a decrease in ph, which you also had.

 

[vmiller]

Don't forget that the overflow and skimmer oxygenate the water pretty well, and Tony has a little monster of a skimmer.

I think fish would be more sensitive to oxygen depletion than corals, and if they were suffering from that, it would be obvious.

I've had very similar problems to Tony. In fact, the symptoms are pretty much the same. If I had any oxygen depletion, I think I would know it from my Achilles Tang which needs well oxygenated water to do well. One night I had to leave the return pump off (no skimmer, no overflow -> low oxygen) and the next morning the Achilles was white and gasping! Corals were fine though.

I also have always had good pH.

But I'm no chemist either. Too bad Tony didn't have an ORP meter during the trouble.

 

[jaze36]

Maybe it wasn't a total depletion, maybe it was a change in the level and the change caused the recession? Going from kalk to a reactor could have caused enough instability, not a giant instability like lack of oxygen that was short term, that over a period of months caused the recession.

 

[DanConnor]

Jaze- one problem with that theory. Increasing levels of CO2 does not lead to decreasing levels of O2. The two levels are not linked.

 

[michaelg]

Here's one for you guys- I actually have a bs in chemistry. was afterwards that I fell in love with what can only be seen through a microscope...... Thus- I have trouble remembering a lot of it- but none of this is very complicated chemistry (and I can still follow the chemists who work for me and understand what they are doing).

My real knowledge base is in biology though.
Some comments after the disclaimer:
Just so folks are clear. Randy's new and improved mix only alters the magnesium source. He found a cheap source for magnesium chloride, and before it was from magnesium sulphate (epson salts). Personally I have not found mg levels to need to be adjusted unless I get real lazy with water changes. Trace elements are not Tony's problem. I never add them other than through water changes....

That said- I have no idea what is going on with Tony's tank.

"I think this would reduce the o2 levels in yuor tank, starving the corals of oxygen and slowly over time causeing the recession."

Steve while some of your explanation has rationale to it, it doesnt' hold up.... If there is any increase in CO2 it would have been from the calcium reactor not being calibrated for the amount needed. Corals not having enough O2 would not slowly die- they would be dead by now.

Tony runs a truckload of water movement through the tank- and unless he shuts most of the pumps off at night, the water will stay saturated with oxygen. I don't recall that he has major algae problems- which ime have been the first things to show water chemistry is out of whack.
FWIW with tanks for years now I have done kalk for all makeup water and a reactor to keep levels up. I needed to increase my co2 injection this week as alk levels were starting to drop (the tank is saturated with calcium and carbonate consuming corals- and I mean packed, which is why some need new homes}
I'm still baffled by this problem.

I like the way that this whole problem is being thought through by the group, and Steve you did a great job raising some questions that may have been overlooked. What else are we not looking at here???? Keep in mind TA works in biology etc.... so not someone who hasn't banged his head against a wall over this.....

 

[vmiller]

Keep in mind TA works in biology etc.... so not someone who hasn't banged his head against a wall over this..... [/B]

Hey, you don't need to be a scientist to bang your head against the wall.

 

[TA]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6981334#post6981334 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by michaelg
Keep in mind TA works in biology etc.... so not someone who hasn't banged his head against a wall over this.....

Thanks for the support michaelg.
You should see the bruise on the side of my head!

 

[michaelg]

Your welcome to join the bruise head club Vin.

 

[Goneracin]

did you ever check to see what the levels are up to now?

Marty