russ49merc
New member
I like the a/c unit above the tank I use those in server rooms but very good idea.
ReefWaters' 220 Sun Room Reef
- Thread starter ReefWaters
- Start date
trueblackpercula
New member
very nice please keep posting. Man thats a lot of work but it will be worth it.
Michael
Michael
ReefWaters
Premium Member
Here's the plumbing layout. I've never run a secondary sump the way I'm trying to do it. I don't believe there are any missing components or problems with the design though. The only tank that should change its water level due to evaporation is the main sump. Every other tank should fill to its respective overflow.
Please let me know if anyone has any questions or see any problems with the design.
Please let me know if anyone has any questions or see any problems with the design.
jnarowe
New member
Looks good. Why don't you gravity feed the skimmer from the display? Then you could cut out a feed pump right?
Your drawing is nice for sure but why the secondary sump as a separate unit? Seems like you have an extra return pump when you don't need it. I have two sumps as well. The display overflows into the inbound sump and skimmer. Then the water travels through two valved lines to the outbound sump, while the skimmer also feeds to the outbound sump. Then the return pump goes to a manifold that feeds 4 lines to the display, 1 line to my reactors, and 1 line to the fuge, which overflows into the display.
Because I have used flexible PVC, I can take either sump offline for an extended period for replacement, cleaning etc. without stopping the water processing flow. Just some thoughts for you to consider.
Your drawing is nice for sure but why the secondary sump as a separate unit? Seems like you have an extra return pump when you don't need it. I have two sumps as well. The display overflows into the inbound sump and skimmer. Then the water travels through two valved lines to the outbound sump, while the skimmer also feeds to the outbound sump. Then the return pump goes to a manifold that feeds 4 lines to the display, 1 line to my reactors, and 1 line to the fuge, which overflows into the display.
Because I have used flexible PVC, I can take either sump offline for an extended period for replacement, cleaning etc. without stopping the water processing flow. Just some thoughts for you to consider.
melev
Well-known member
The only thing that stands out to me now as well as before is the 40g main sump. I think it is too small.
Try to determine the surface area of every vessel, assuming each one will drain only 1" worth of water. Will the main sump hold all that water in the event of a power outage? If it will, then you're set.
If it was me, I would make the main sump huge. Just eliminate the water change vessel. Turn off the external pumps and let all the water collect in that main sump. Pump it out and replace it with new ly aged saltwater. It shouldn't take more than 20 minutes, then restart the pumps.
Try to determine the surface area of every vessel, assuming each one will drain only 1" worth of water. Will the main sump hold all that water in the event of a power outage? If it will, then you're set.
If it was me, I would make the main sump huge. Just eliminate the water change vessel. Turn off the external pumps and let all the water collect in that main sump. Pump it out and replace it with new ly aged saltwater. It shouldn't take more than 20 minutes, then restart the pumps.
RRodrigues
New member
Very nice. How thick is the glass used in that cube tank?
eastcoaster1
New member
Nice, well thought out system.
As far as the plumbing goes...something about the split overflow drains doesn't seem right to me. I'm pretty sure the return pump needs to be feed with the same amount of water that it's pumping into the tank. If the overflows go directly into the sump with the pump then it's a nice self-regulating system. Once you split the overflows I think you will run into problems balancing the water flow between the tank and the main sump.
As far as the plumbing goes...something about the split overflow drains doesn't seem right to me. I'm pretty sure the return pump needs to be feed with the same amount of water that it's pumping into the tank. If the overflows go directly into the sump with the pump then it's a nice self-regulating system. Once you split the overflows I think you will run into problems balancing the water flow between the tank and the main sump.
jnarowe
New member
Yeah, and Marc is right about sump size. I have two 100g sumps which I allow to be half full, giving me the ability to absorb all the water in the overflow, plumbing etc. during a power outage, as well as fully cover me if my skimmer explodes again. I think you are making it more complicated than it needs to be, and possibly introducing an element of risk.
ReefWaters
Premium Member
I'll just quote the questions and respond in blue.
As for the extra return pump, I would personally rather have 2 small pumps than one large one. This way, there are less, smaller, pipes going everywhere, and if I need to remove a pump from the system for maintenance or to replace it, I can do so and run the entire system off of the secondary pump return.
Okay, you got me. I knew someone was going to bring that up. :lol: I just haven’t taken the time yet to figure out the minimum size sump needed to handle a power outage. I’m very aware of how important it is. Just calculating the volume of the top 1†of all the tanks comes out to about 25 gallons.
), fill it with fresh RO/DI water (about a day), mix it (one day), and then slowly cut the sump flow back on. No additional water change buckets, no drain hoses, no pumps to get the water back in the tank, and a lot less stress on the tank than replacing 50 gallons of fresh salt water in a matter of minutes.
The front back and one side are 12mm starphire glass
The overflow side, overflow, and Eurobracing are 12mm regular glass
The bottom is 19mm regular glass
All the glass is ground and polished. You really can’t appreciate this aspect of a nice custom tank without seeing it in person. Im VERY pleased.
Hope that all made sense. If you have any more questions, or still think Im missing something, please tell me, thats what this is meant for.
Thanks for the help.
RW
I could try it. But Im concerned I will not have enough through put that way. I also want to have as few pipes going back and forth across the room as possible.
Im trying to avoid/change everything about my current system that annoys me. And one of the biggest things that annoys me right now is how hard it is to get my hands in the sump in order to clean probes, remove pumps or heaters, or ANYTHING else that might need to be done in the sump. The location of the “main†sump in the new system reminds me too much of my current sump. So Im hoping to fix this by having the “secondary†sump up higher, close to the sink, and right next to where all of the equipment is going to be. This way, I can add supplements easily, get my hands anywhere in the sump easily, and keep a close eye on the business end of the tank all in one spot. And I wont have to get on my hands and knees and crawl under the stand to do so.
As for the extra return pump, I would personally rather have 2 small pumps than one large one. This way, there are less, smaller, pipes going everywhere, and if I need to remove a pump from the system for maintenance or to replace it, I can do so and run the entire system off of the secondary pump return.
Okay, you got me. I knew someone was going to bring that up. :lol: I just haven’t taken the time yet to figure out the minimum size sump needed to handle a power outage. I’m very aware of how important it is. Just calculating the volume of the top 1†of all the tanks comes out to about 25 gallons. I will definitely go bigger than the 40 gallon sump. I will probably go as big as the space will allow. But I do want my water change sump, even if I get it by simply putting a water tight baffle in the main sump. Im bad about doing water changes. I hate them. So Im trying to make it as simple as possible. I stole this idea from Tuan Pham's tank of the month. I will be able to cut off the water change sump and not affect the rest of the system at all. Then I can drain the old salt water from that tank (directly into my floor drain
), fill it with fresh RO/DI water (about a day), mix it (one day), and then slowly cut the sump flow back on. No additional water change buckets, no drain hoses, no pumps to get the water back in the tank, and a lot less stress on the tank than replacing 50 gallons of fresh salt water in a matter of minutes. I believe there will be about 900 gph flowing “through†the tank. From the inputs and out the drains. This is what I call turnover. Some people may call it the total amount of water movement inside the tank due to all pumps. If that’s the case, there is no telling. The Vortechs are rated between 200 and 3000 gph each. I will probably have 4 eventually. But I will also be running it on the infamous EcoTech controller, so it will vary up and down depending on the settings of the controller.
The front back and one side are 12mm starphire glass
The overflow side, overflow, and Eurobracing are 12mm regular glass
The bottom is 19mm regular glass
All the glass is ground and polished. You really can’t appreciate this aspect of a nice custom tank without seeing it in person. Im VERY pleased.
Hope that all made sense. If you have any more questions, or still think Im missing something, please tell me, thats what this is meant for.
Thanks for the help.
RW
melev
Well-known member
Creating a water change vessel is fine if you have the space. I'd love to have one but I don't have the room in the fish room. I've even thought about enlarging the fishroom to house a couple of barrels (salt and RO/DI) but then I may find the window a/c isn't large enough. Don't know yet.
The one thing about vessels that are removable is you can take them out and rinse them, let them air dry, and have them clean for next time. If you have room for a large sump and a water change vessel, go for it. If you make it one with a divider, you'll need to use thicker acrylic to hold that volume of water for longer periods of time to avoid swelling issues.
How does the water go from the mixing chamber into the master sump? Won't that be adding it all at once, so to speak since you had to drain a specific amount from the reef down the floor drain?
One other question - how to you determine how much has drained out without draining too much? By what is left in the master sump? If so, you'll want the master sump to be pretty tall so that it can hold a decent amount of water and as water drains away, there is enough water to avoid having the return pump suck air. If the sump is a longer shallower one, the surface will reach the pump more quickly because the water is spread out over a larger area.
The one thing about vessels that are removable is you can take them out and rinse them, let them air dry, and have them clean for next time. If you have room for a large sump and a water change vessel, go for it. If you make it one with a divider, you'll need to use thicker acrylic to hold that volume of water for longer periods of time to avoid swelling issues.
How does the water go from the mixing chamber into the master sump? Won't that be adding it all at once, so to speak since you had to drain a specific amount from the reef down the floor drain?
One other question - how to you determine how much has drained out without draining too much? By what is left in the master sump? If so, you'll want the master sump to be pretty tall so that it can hold a decent amount of water and as water drains away, there is enough water to avoid having the return pump suck air. If the sump is a longer shallower one, the surface will reach the pump more quickly because the water is spread out over a larger area.
Just something I noticed. If it was me I would want all the water turned over skimmed. Since that doesn't seem to be possible with the design you have I would maybe think about putting the skimmer on the other side so that all the water is either run by the skimmer or through the fuge. That way more of the water is filtered, in one way or the other, on every pass. Just a thought
Chris
Chris
ReefWaters
Premium Member
I think I can answer this pretty simply. If you still have questions, please ask. I know exactly how its going to work, but I may not be explaining it very well.
Here is a detail of the main sump and water change tank.
As before, blue lines are drain lines and red lines are from pumps.
I didnt draw in any shut off valves, but there will be one on probably every single drain and return line in the system to allow me to turn off anything and everything, if ever needed, as well as to divert more water into one tank or the other.
There will be separate drain lines coming from the display overflow to the main sump and to the water change tank. On any given day, the water change sump will be full of salt water and connected to the system, and will effectively just be extra water volume in the system. Whenever I want to do a water change, I just shut off the drain that supplies water to the water change tank. This will not affect the water level in the main sump except for the little bit of water in the drain lines supplying and draining the water change tank as well as the little bit of water that is higher than the drain going from the water change tank to the main sump.
Once the water change tank is shut off, I just turn another valve and drain the water change sump to the floor drain. I will probably have to vacuum out a little water from the bottom of the water change tank. Or I can raise the tank a few inches and drain it directly through the bottom, or just leave the water to mix with the new salt water.
The water change tank will also be directly connected to the RO/DI unit with a water level shut off. I'll just turn a small valve to allow fresh RO water into the water change tank, and let it fill without worries. Once its full, I'll toss some salt in with a heater and power head, let it sit for a day or two and cut the drain supply line to the water change tank back on.
When I cut the supply to the water change tank back on after making fresh salt water, I'll only turn the valve partially, to allow the new salt water to mix slowly. After a while, I can cut it on full throttle again.
Sorry for being so long winded. I hope this made sense.
ReefWaters
Premium Member
fishdoc11, lets agree to disagree. 
I could be completely wrong, but I feel that the water in any system will reach a parameter equilibrium no matter how the water is moved about the system. In my humble opinion, as long as all the water in the system is connected somehow, it doesn't really matter where things are located. If the water wasn't connected, it wouldn't be the same system anyway. I see what you are saying, you like to force every bit of water through the skimmer at some point during its trip from the time it leaves the display to the time it gets back to the display. I just feel that it will eventually get skimmed no matter what. Hope that makes sense.
I could be completely wrong, but I feel that the water in any system will reach a parameter equilibrium no matter how the water is moved about the system. In my humble opinion, as long as all the water in the system is connected somehow, it doesn't really matter where things are located. If the water wasn't connected, it wouldn't be the same system anyway. I see what you are saying, you like to force every bit of water through the skimmer at some point during its trip from the time it leaves the display to the time it gets back to the display. I just feel that it will eventually get skimmed no matter what. Hope that makes sense.
jnarowe
New member
OK, so I want to chime in a little bit. As far as the skimmer goes, it depends on the type of skimmer you are using and what your philosphy is in this regard. I only have about 600g/hour going through my skimmer and it pulls out 1g/day of very foul coffee. Do I think I could do better? Well yes, I think there is always room for improvement! Other skimmers operate better with more throughput.
I think, if I understand your posts correctly, you may have an issue with the remote sump. It seems you are planning to put your probes in there as well as feed your Ca and alk. I think this may be a mistake and hear me out...I put my probes in my "inbound" sump and my supplements into my "outbound" sump. They get mixed plenty on their way to the display, but if I dosed into the inbound sump, then my probes would go wild and things would get shut down for no real reason. Every time my top-off kicks on, then my probes would read an elevated pH, and my CO2 and top-off would be shut down by the controller.
So I hope I got this across in a manner that makes sense, but I just think you have to be careful about this issue and think it through.
Other skimmers operate better with more throughput.I think, if I understand your posts correctly, you may have an issue with the remote sump. It seems you are planning to put your probes in there as well as feed your Ca and alk. I think this may be a mistake and hear me out...I put my probes in my "inbound" sump and my supplements into my "outbound" sump. They get mixed plenty on their way to the display, but if I dosed into the inbound sump, then my probes would go wild and things would get shut down for no real reason. Every time my top-off kicks on, then my probes would read an elevated pH, and my CO2 and top-off would be shut down by the controller.
So I hope I got this across in a manner that makes sense, but I just think you have to be careful about this issue and think it through.
jnarowe
New member
Oh, yeah, and that water change method may not be the best idea. When you mix in the new water, you are actually not changing out that volume, but a diluted version of that volume. If your system is 1000g and your water change tub is 100g, and you mix them together, you are really only changing out maybe 1/10 or 10g. I think that's the correct way to analyze that, but you could check out in the water chemistry forum more info. on that.
JCTewks
In Memoriam
I believe that the water change will be done just as anyone else does...you take X gallons out, and replace it with X gallons on NSW. taking the "water change sump" offline for the process...and usiong the system water that is in the tank as what will be thrown away. then making NSW in the same tank, and putting it online again....it does away with any measurung, or worrying about taking out more or less than you are replacing.
All he is doing is making a way to do it without having to get his hands dirty so to speak.
All he is doing is making a way to do it without having to get his hands dirty so to speak.
ReefWaters
Premium Member
JCTewks is correct. It will replace X amount of water with X amount of water. Its no different than doing it the old fashioned way of filling up buckets with NSW and siphoning off the same amount.
As for adding supplements in the same sump as the probes, jnarowe you are probably very correct about that. I do it now, but I dont really have an option. I will look into a way to design the secondary sump so that the probes are ahead of anything being added to the sump. Or I can add things to the main sump instead.
As for adding supplements in the same sump as the probes, jnarowe you are probably very correct about that. I do it now, but I dont really have an option. I will look into a way to design the secondary sump so that the probes are ahead of anything being added to the sump. Or I can add things to the main sump instead.
jnarowe
New member
sorry...I just misunderstood your description.
As for the probes, in a mlarge tank system, often you are constantly adding Ca and kalk so the area in which this is being done has a higher ppm than the system as awhole. If you are going to automate it with dosing pumps and a Ca effluent line, typically you are able to put the reactor/dosing pump just about anywhere and run 1/4" or 3/8" line to the outbound sump.
For instance, the LiterMeter III doesn't have to be anywhere near the delivery point.
As for the probes, in a mlarge tank system, often you are constantly adding Ca and kalk so the area in which this is being done has a higher ppm than the system as awhole. If you are going to automate it with dosing pumps and a Ca effluent line, typically you are able to put the reactor/dosing pump just about anywhere and run 1/4" or 3/8" line to the outbound sump.
For instance, the LiterMeter III doesn't have to be anywhere near the delivery point.
