S-15 Report? & a few ?s

[Experimenter]

Dr. Ron,

After reading your article, I wanted to search for more information. In my search, I found talk of the S-15 report. It appears that this was done in the early 1990s. In any case, can you give relative newcomers to reefs any information about it? Here is a link (I know you don't follow them, but others may want to) that talks about the different salt mixes:

http://www.aquacraft.net/index.html

It is apparently from the makers of one of the "better" salt mixes, BIO Sea Marinemix by Aqua Craft, so I am certain it must be biased.

I have to admit I am skeptical about the two mixes that did best in your study. For one, Marine Enterprises International, makers of the salt you will apparently use, seems to make many other products that appear to be questionable (look at their skimmer and "bed rock" for example). This does not appear to be a company that would produce high grade anything - but I could be wrong. It just doesn't seem to be targeted to the laboratory facilities.

Marine Enterprises International

Also, this salt has been around for a while and I'm curious why Bingman did not test it earlier and why it doesn't have better market share (if it is as good as you say, and especially for the price). BTW, the makers of BIO Sea Marinemix, Aqua Craft, make claims on their web site that Crystal Sea is manufactured very sloppily.

I also would have felt better about your study if you had obtained all samples of salt in the same manner - from a retailer like we would. That you obtained the salt directly from the manufacturer makes me skeptical. Did they know what you were up to? Probably. Is this the same salt we would get? I don't know.

I also don't like that you included the table showing the composition of the salt mixes, particularly since you used the values from the manufacturers for the two salts that performed best in your study, but relied on the Atkinson and Bingman results for the others. If you would have used data from the manufacturers for all salts, I'm sure the table would look different. If one does not read carefully, I think it is highly misleading. If you follow the link above and look at the composition results listed on that web site, you will see what I mean.

Thank you for continuing to do this kind of research. I just think we need to be very careful here given the nature of the industry.

Take care,
John

 

[rshimek]

Re: S-15 Report? & a few ?s

Originally posted by Experimenter

Hi John,

In any case, can you give relative newcomers to reefs any information about it?

No, I can't really. All I know about it, is what is published on the web. I have also not given it much credance.

It is apparently from the makers of one of the "better" salt mixes, BIO Sea Marinemix by Aqua Craft, so I am certain it must be biased.

It may be biased. However, the information in it may be accurate. The concentrations of what is in the salts is easily determined, and the values given in the report are presumably verifiable. It just takes money to do so. Aquarium product manufacturers often publish erroneous data about the constituents of their products, it seem, as we know from the case of some rather well-known additives. In these cases, the manufacturers rely on the inability of hobbyists to test the veracity of their claims. Nonetheless, they can be tested.

It just doesn't seem to be targeted to the laboratory facilities.

As I understand it, from communications from some folks in the aquaculture industry, the salt and most of their products are targeted for aquaculture not to hobbyists, as well as to certified bioassay laboratories. But this is hearsay, as I don't have access to the manufacturers sales and marketiing plans.

Also, this salt has been around for a while and I'm curious why Bingman did not test it earlier and why it doesn't have better market share (if it is as good as you say, and especially for the price).

As I understand it, Atkinson and Bingman did not test it specifically because it was low in the "essential" trace elements.

BTW, the makers of BIO Sea Marinemix, Aqua Craft, make claims on their web site that Crystal Sea is manufactured very sloppily.

So what, manufacturers always make claims.

I also would have felt better about your study if you had obtained all samples of salt in the same manner - from a retailer like we would. That you obtained the salt directly from the manufacturer makes me skeptical. Did they know what you were up to? Probably. Is this the same salt we would get? I don't know.

Well, John, it came packed exactly as it comes to Dennis Tagrin when he uses it in DT's phytoplankton. I got it from the sales rep that Dennis uses.

I also don't like that you included the table showing the composition of the salt mixes, particularly since you used the values from the manufacturers for the two salts that performed best in your study, but relied on the Atkinson and Bingman results for the others.

In either case I am taking information available from the literature. Frankly, I am not convinced that any of these sources is any better or any worse than any other.

I would welcome you or anybody else to obtain some of the salts and do the analyses of them. I simply couldn't afford to. You may also duplicate my study if you wish, the materials and methods are quite detailed and should allow you to run the same tests. I am confident you will find the same pattern.

 

[Experimenter]

Thanks for the reply. Truthfully, I would love to run the analyses if I could. I would be more than happy to contribute some money to a completely independent party to do them (as I did in your original water study). I may try at some point to get hobbyists together to do such a study. Given the false claims from many manufacturers in the industry, I would never rely on their data.

Likewise, boards like this one and others may not be the appropriate parties given the money they recieve from advertising - even if they are as honest as I believe.

Thanks for keeping us thinking and learning!

Take care,
John

 

[lautaro]

Follow up after 16 years of using Aqua Craft salts

Follow up after 16 years of using Aqua Craft salts

I don't know much about the report , however I have freinds that use the Aqua Craft salts (the two parts) for their reef, and has had no problems , he has his tank up for 16 years, so I think time might be a better tool for proof.

Lautaro

PS: I will be ordering some of this salt from my LFS, we will see.

 

[Eric Boerner]

Not an attack on your experiment, but a few questions.

Doesn't NSW from a reef environment differ in chemical make up than NSW taken from 35 miles off the coast of California? Isn't Catalina Salt Water also, not really "Natural" Salt Water?

A quote from their website:

"Catalina Water Company has developed a state-of-the-art filtration system that combines the use of oxygen (O2) converted into ozone (O3) and UV Sterilization. This destroys any bacteria or harmful microorganisms and, when used in conjunction with charcoal and sand, it will remove any heavy metals and toxins. This system eliminates any possibility of contaminants in the water. Our tanks circulate 24 hours a day ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ 7 days a week. Once the water has passed through our filtration system, we have a highly consistent product that can be used with confidence."

Isn't it also true that in a reef ecosystem, that other lifeforms depend on "some" trace metals that are present in NRW (Natural Reef Water), such as macro-algaes and skeleton building hard corals?

I think your experiment has validly raised questions about the consentrated levels of heavy metals in the two largest manufacturers of Synthetic Salt mixes. However, If this experiment had taken place in say... Hawaii, with natural reef water straight from the reef, with no filtration or processing done to it, in addition to a multi-species test environment, would you get differing results than those you acquired with this last test?

 

[rshimek]

Originally posted by Eric Boerner

Hi Eric,

Doesn't NSW from a reef environment differ in chemical make up than NSW taken from 35 miles off the coast of California?

For NSW taken say 30 feet over a reef, the measured differences would be so minor as to be within measurement error. In other words, generally no.

Isn't Catalina Salt Water also, not really "Natural" Salt Water?

Nah, it is good stuff. All they have done by this process is sterilize it.

Isn't it also true that in a reef ecosystem, that other lifeforms depend on "some" trace metals that are present in NRW (Natural Reef Water), such as macro-algaes and skeleton building hard corals?

No. In most cases, they detoxify these materials by shunting them into harmless materials (such as the skeleton). In other cases they need nothing more that very very small trace amounts. Excess amounts - generally anything over a coulpe of times normal act as poisons.

would you get differing results than those you acquired with this last test?

Nope.

 

[Eric Boerner]

Thanks for the reply Ron. It's interesting how a company can put a spin on the levels of trace amounts into making the consumer feel they are getting something that is better quality. Guess there is a lot of dumb suckers out there, considering those two brands have the lionshare of the market.

I'll stick to the catalina water in any case. It's practically free in the LA area. I'll have to reconsider what I dose though. I had been dosing extra trace elements to make up for the low amounts in the the NSW. Unfortunately, I don't run a calcium reactor, which would make sense to just run the reactor plus NSW alone.

 

[rshimek]

Originally posted by Eric Boerner

Hi Eric,

I had been dosing extra trace elements to make up for the low amounts in the the NSW.

Yes. For the animals to well, they have to be low. More is not better in this case.