scolley's Big Little Nano – yet another build thread

[scolley]

That is really strange. I've never heard of problems like that with Krylon Fusion. If it was caused by cold water going in the tank, I'd think we would hear of it more often.

I'm sure you are right about the cold water being something we'd hear about. But I suspect it was not just the cold water, but the cold water in conjunction with something else. Like maybe my having used Krylon, but not Krylon Fusion.

I know I had a partial can of flat black Kyrlon Fusion left over from spaying I 29g. And I assume I used that. I know it was Krylon - I remember that much. But my son has also used some black spray paint of late, so maybe I got a Krylon product - just not Fusion. And maybe the wrong paint plus that cold water did it.

Don't know, but I DO know the cracking happened when I filled it. It got worse as I watched - cracks going from non-existent to big over the span of 10 minutes. So it seems hard to imagine that the water was not a factor, but it leaves open the question of what other factors were involved. Wrong paint? Temperature when applying? Poor surface prep?

When I paint a tank I do a bit of sanding with a very fine sand paper

Thanks! Sounds like a good idea, assuming a painted back is a permanent condition for that tank.

Good idea!

 

[iwishtofish]

Krylon makes a latex spray paint. Latex wouldn't adhere well; maybe that was the issue.

 

[scolley]

Krylon makes a latex spray paint. Latex wouldn't adhere well; maybe that was the issue.

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that that was my mistake. Though it was adhered very well in areas away from the cracks.In scraping those areas up with a razor blade those areas would not come off in chips or flakes. It only came away in powder form. So away from the cracks it was adhered very well. Though clearly near the cracks the it adhered abysmally.

Oh well, final coat of the new brush/roll on replacement paint is ready to go on. Too cold for anymore outdoor spray painting.

 

[tpallas]

Steve did you water test the whole system? With no leaks?

 

[scolley]

Yes and no Tom. I did not test the 5 John Guest fitting fluids. But those fittings are not particularly prone to leaks. But most everything else was tested. And there WERE some minor leaks, but all fixed.

Since I'm taking so much equipment out of my existing 29G, once I start tearing that down... The clock is ticking on how long can go buy before the livestock is back in a new, fully functioning system. So things like leak testing have to be gotten out of the way up front. Standing in front of fish and corals in a trash can will be no time to figure out that I've got a leak that only a new piece that I have to order will fix.

 

[tpallas]

Well that's good. Any idea of when the transfer will be?

 

[scolley]

This weekend I'll have to deal with some "fussy" PITA things. Like getting the power strips mounted. It's a really, really tight fit. And then I've got to build the ATS plumbing in the sump. Since the ATS is in - or rather over - the sump, small leaks aren't a problem. Having space will be the issue. And getting it fit and secured in such a tiny space will be a challenge.

There's going to be enough plumbing in the wet section of the stand, over the sump, that I'll be surprised if it ever looks like more than a jumble of pipes and tubes in photographs. That's why I've provided so many diagrams, 'cuz when it's all built, the space over the sump is going to look like a rat's nest.

So this weekend I'll be assembling the hardest part of the rat's nest. And that sets me up for a possible new tank - with corals, CUC, and fish - in time for Christmas! Will be close.

 

[Wheel of Time]

Good luck Steve. Looking pretty solid.

Im around this weekend if you want a hand for the final fit and polish and transfer help.

 

[scolley]

Thanks Seth. Don't keep plans open just for me. But it's possible I could use a hand getting the corals out of my 29.

I'm setting up a trash can with egg crate, heat, filtration and circulation to move my corals and livestock into. I'm hoping to move the coral and most of the live rock this weekend. If I can stay on that schedule, experienced help would be great. Thanks!

Will let you know about progress/timing!

 

[scolley]

Reusing so many critical components of my old system in my new one means I won't have the luxury of a quick transfer of livestock from the old to the new. I have to dismantle the old - taking apart systems the livestock depend on- before I can even begin assembling the reused components into the new system.

To help bridge this "life support gap", I'm creating an interim system in a Rubbermaid trash can. I'll move all livestock to the trash can, disassemble the old system, install key components from the old system into the new, and then transfer livestock from the trash can into the new system/tank.

The trashcan will have heat, powerheads for circulation, canister filtration for mechanical and chemical filtration, but no light initially. I plan to transfer corals into the trash can first. Lack of light will eliminate photosynthesis and keep Ca, alk, and Mg levels more stable, ready to go into the new tank, plus buying a few days to transfer components from the old system to the new. With no skimmer in the trash can, it will be a "feed free" zone. In other words, there'll be no feeding in the trash can.

A day or so before starting up the new system, I'll transfer the fish and remaining live rock to the trash can too, and turn on a MH light over it. At that time I'll endeavour to have the old tank disassembled, and the new tank in it's place and ready to take livestock within two days.

Kind of an elaborate dance of events, but hopefully one that will allow me to both reside components between systems, and minimize effects of the transfer on livestock, particularly corals.

 

[iwishtofish]

The rock will be in the can, too, right? Any fish, ever?

It sounds like a good plan, provided that water circulates everywhere, and there is good aeration. Just surface agitation might not do the trick - do you think an air stone might have any benefit? Or perhaps one of the powerheads has a venturi?

 

[scolley]

Thanks, good question.

I'm planning on roughly one half of the live rock to go onto the interim trash can when the corals go in. That should help with biological filtration in the can and leave some of the same with the fish waiting for the 2nd wave of transfer to the trash can.

As for the filtration providing sufficient air, I'll employ a method used by planted tank enthusiasts. That's simply to place a high powered return close to the surface. High gasseous exchange - without supplemental methods like airstones - are easily available with high surface agitation. Plus the lack of light will reduce the need for Oxygen, just as it will reduce the corals consumption of Vs, Mg, etc.

Please don't get me wrong... I've got nothing against airstones. I've got a massive air compressor running for my other systems that could drive another 10 or 20 airstones. Its just that it is unnecessary with good surface agitation, and reduced O2 consumption. Just like with plants, to light drives consumption in photosynthetic organizations. Back off on that and consumption of all things reduce.

 

[BennyFrank]

Just a quick question. When you painted the tank how many coats did you put on?, how thick were they?, and how long did you wait for each coat to dry?

 

[scolley]

Just a quick question. When you painted the tank how many coats did you put on?, how thick were they?, and how long did you wait for each coat to dry?

OK, time for full disclosure on the painting process. Time to tease out those memories...

First, I actually used not one, but two different cans in the process. Definitely both Krylon, flat black. But one of the two that I only had 1/2 a can of said something like "Extra Flat". I thought that would be good to start with. It was about 1/2 a can, and I used it all. Then about 1/2 of the other can, which was full when I started.

The actual time I had to paint was limited, so I put the coats on thick. Normally I just dust the glass, many coats of dusting. This time I went beyond "dust". I would not say the surface looked wet when I finished a coat, but it was not far off from that. To give you a better idea, I'd say I spent between 45 seconds and a minute to cover a 25" x 18" surface.

There was about 4 hours between the 1st coat and the 2nd. After that I spaced them by 30 minutes. Total of 4 coats. The final coat was done after sundown, by flashlight. So the temp dropped for the last two coats too.

Also, I notice a problem with the first coat - flecking. The paint was thoroughly shaken. In fact, it was exactly 3x the shaking recommended on the can. And it had been in the house for a few hours, so it was room temp. But the first can did not dispense as all smoky paint dust. Lots of paint globs and flecks came out. I was puzzled about that, and still don't know. Maybe an air temp problem?

I've looked up historical weather info... About 58 degrees for the first coat, low 50's for the 2nd and 3rd, and apparently down to high 40's for the last coat.

 

[BennyFrank]

OK, time for full disclosure on the painting process. Time to tease out those memories...

I apologize if I've brought some suppressed memories to the light, but I can tell you're a man who likes answers. So I'm hoping to help flush out the science on the paint issue so that you can sleep soundly at night

The actual time I had to paint was limited, so I put the coats on thick.

I think this combined with the fact it was multi-purpose paint (not fusion) and the contraction due to temperature, are your culprits.

Everything is looking great, I've really enjoyed following along.

 

[JasonBJones]

Steve,

Everything seems to be coming along nicely. Well thought out and planned, the way it should be.

Can you give a little more detail on everything you are moving from the old tank to the new tank. I am just trying to understand why you need the interim trash can step. If it is necessary, that is no big deal. However, if there was some way to avoid that step, I think it would provide less stress to the inhabitants.

Looking over everything you have done already, it seems like most of the vital components are already on the new tank and the move should be pretty easy.

 

[scolley]

... I can tell you're a man who likes answers. So I'm hoping to help flush out the science on the paint issue so that you can sleep soundly at night

Indeed I am. Thanks for the help!

I think this combined with the fact it was multi-purpose paint (not fusion) and the contraction due to temperature, are your culprits.

Makes sense to me, given the qualification that we don't KNOW that it was not Fusion. But it seems like a reasonable operating assumption. Occam's Razor and all that...

Will sleep better tonight.

Oh... all's well that ends well. And this ending well because the replacement paint - Farrow & Ball "Pitch Black" #256 - appears even deeper black, and flatter, than the Krylon, if such a thing is possible.

 

[scolley]

Can you give a little more detail on everything you are moving from the old tank to the new tank. I am just trying to understand why you need the interim trash can step. If it is necessary, that is no big deal. However, if there was some way to avoid that step, I think it would provide less stress to the inhabitants.

Thanks for the kind words!

And let me see if I can explain why I think (do not know) that the interim tank is necessary.

Components that will not be attached and running on the new tank until I tear the old tank down are as follows:

1. Return pump. I DID test the return plumbing, but it was with a smaller chiller pump. The larger Eheim will have to have a "Y" to the ATS built, along with soft tubing connections to the bulkheads to minimize vibration transmission, and a gate valve. Sounds easy, but when cramming something complicated in a small space, it's really hard to know exactly what parts you'll need. You think you need an elbow, then find out it's a shade too long and have to figure out an alternative - which may involve ordering parts. It could be easy. But it could take a while. In my current tank it took me multiple days to get it right.
2. SCWD. That IS going to be a problem. It's behind the old stand where it cannot be maintained easily, so I'm moving it into the stand. Without having it (or access to measure it), I'm not sure how it's going to fit. I've got parts to connect it lined up, but there's going to be some rush engineering on that.
3. ATS plumbing. Same issues as the return pump.
4. ATS LED light. Will probably be easy, can't know until I try. And I can't just pull it temporarily because it can't be removed from the current stand without draining the tank and moving it away from the wall. Bad planning on that tank/stand design (it was planned to be temporary), so that problem is one of the things I'm fixing with this new tank.
5. Skimmer. Should be no issues, unless it blocks some of the ATS LED light shining on the ATS algae mat. Don't think it will, but won't know until I get it all in there. If it does, it could mean a LOT of time.
6. Drain pump. Same issues as the ATS LED light. Practically speaking I cannot remove it. However, I anticipate NO issues with that little puppy.
7. Heater. Ditto what I said about the drain pump.
8. Osomlator (ATO) sensors. Assuming no issue there EXCEPT that I have not confirmed that the hard-wired connecting cables will reach from the sump, out the back, up and into where the controller will be in the electronics shelf. May require some wire splicing, which equals time.
9. Salt Switch. A DIY control box to switch the Osmolator from an ATO function to a saltwater filling function. Same issue with the wire... assuming it will be long enough.
10. Temperature, pH, and ground probes. Assuming no issue, just time.
11. Vortech MP10. I don't have to wait for that. I've got a new one that will be one of two in the new tank. The corals only have 1 MP10 now, I'm sure they would be fine with only one while I transferred the other one.
12. Lots and lots of electronics: the Apex and all its parts, one of the two MP10 backup batteries, two LED dimmable drivers, the LED control box, the WiFi wireless adapter, and the thermostat box for the heater. These could ALL be just plugged in and working... to be mounted and wires sorted out after the inhabitants are in the tank. But I don't know what I don't know, and am cautious about surprises. I've already had a couple.
13. LED DT light. It hangs from a wall bracket now. And I'm going to have to see the light it casts on the new tank - from that same location - to know if I'm going to have to move the brackets. That implies ladders, sanding and painting. All things I'd rather do over a tank with no livestock in it. But that is another place I could compromise.

So some things I could install after swapping out inhabitants. But a LOT will take time. And unless I get really, really lucky, some things will wind up taking more than a little time. Days.

Plus there is the space problem. I'm putting the new tank in the same spot as the old. So I've got to drain the old to move it, then slide the new tank in. And once I drain the old tank, the clock is ticking. I'll have to do all the plumbing (mentioned above), transfer all the equipment I listed above, PLUS I've got to do live rock arrangement. I'm moving some - but not all - of my rock, and I'd rather start from scratch with all new livestock (including corals) than to rush through that live rock arrangement process. All this effort is for the final result, and the rock arrangement could not be more critical to the quality of the end product - to what the tank looks like two years from today. Too important to rush IMO.

And finally there's the angry coral problem. Many of my corals are well attached, so it's going to be traumatic to move them. I expect sliming to be the order of the day. And if one slimes excessively, and I'm using the interim trash can, I can suspend transfers until it settles in, and I've cleaned the water. Depending on the number of times that happens, my single planned move of coral into the trash can could turn into several moves. If I go straight from one tank to another, I've got no options. Once that old tank is drained, transfer has to happen ASAP.

So whats more stressful? Moving twice (quickly) into good conditions? Or moving once after being dried out for hours (as rock work was finalized) and then moved into a tank that could be filed with mesenterial filaments (slime) with no working sump (skimmer, ATO, ATS)?

Does not seem to be a cut and dried choice, but a comfortable interim environment seems to be a prudent, and possibly less stressful. But happy to hear opinions otherwise.

Oh! I left out one thing... If I use the interim method, I can move things pretty much on my timetable. But if I try the quick transfer - even if things go well - I'm on a timetable and MUST get Humpty Dumpty put back together quickly. I'll have lost control of of the process and will be a slave to completing it ASAP, rather than moving in the controlled and flexible pace the interim trash can allows.

 

[JasonBJones]

I have a long response typed out, but I want to make sure we are on the same page or my response is not relevant.

When you talk about the interim trash can step, are you talking several hours or several days?

 

[scolley]

The interim trash can is at the very least several days. Possibly a week. First the movement of corals and 1/2 of the live rock. Good circulation and filtration, but low light for 1-3 days. Removal of the coral will allow me to begin to pull most equipment from the tank, bring it down to a few inches of water, move it, slide the new tank in place, and refill the old tank. I can then start moving equipment the tank wont need since it is now really only a FOWLR.

Then I move the rest of the live rock and fish. MH lights on then, but not more than 3-4 days. Less if the remaining tank equipment transfers quickly. Then all the livestock goes into to the new tank.