scolley's Big Little Nano – yet another build thread

[JasonBJones]

You make some very valid points in your analysis. I see negatives and positives going both ways.

I think your plan will work fine. You will need to light the corals after a couple of days, but that is really not too big of a deal. I would prefer housing everything in another tank where I could see the animals and their behavior, but a trashcan should be fine as long as you monitor everything closely. If you go that route, I would certainly try to minimize the time in the trash cans.

For me, the perfect move would be to have everything ready to go, use the trash cans as an intermediate step as you hooked up the last bit of plumbing with the essential items (return pump and maybe skimmer) and designed your rockwork. This should all be able to be completed in 3 to 4 hours. Then you move the corals over and finish the install of the non-essential items over the next week (detailed in my responses to your points below).

Just playing devil's advocate here (not trying to be a jerk), so I will address each of your points.

1) It seems like you should be able to have everything ready to move the return pump over before the tank move. You could pre-plumb everything. If you have to have the return pump to do this, unplug it from your current system for a couple of hours while you plumb; run your current tank off internal powerheads. This should not present any problems.
2) Here are the measurements for a SCWD, so you can be able to figure this out before hand.
3/4" 4-1/2" x 5" x 2-3/4"
1" 5-1/2" x 7-1/4" x 4"
3) Not necessary to be done right away
4) Same as above
5) Not necessary to be up immediately, but probably should be. Same with 1, borrow it from the old system for a bit to test fit.
6) I am not sure what you mean by drain pump, but you say it shouldn't be a problem.
7) Easy
8) Not necessary right away
9) Same
10) Same
11) Not a problem
12) As you state, these could be done after the tank is set up. There should be no surprises involved and this shouldn't cause any problems.
13) This is valid. If you are going to be sanding and such, it would be easier without the tank setup. Then again, you could just cover the tank with a towel and sand to your heart's content.

"PLUS I've got to do live rock arrangement. I'm moving some - but not all - of my rock, and I'd rather start from scratch with all new livestock (including corals) than to rush through that live rock arrangement process."
- Valid points. Although you don't have to have the live rock structure done right away, but it is easier.

"And finally there's the angry coral problem."
- If you move the tank all in one step, you will likely need to use trash cans as an interim step while you put the new tank in place. You can treat the trash can the same way, move only as the slime and things are handled.

"So whats more stressful? Moving twice (quickly) into good conditions? Or moving once after being dried out for hours (as rock work was finalized) and then moved into a tank that could be filed with mesenterial filaments (slime) with no working sump (skimmer, ATO, ATS)?"
- Doing it my way, nothing would be dried out for hours. You move things temporarily into trashcans and set it up the same was you will when doing it over the long term in the trash cans. As far as the sump not working, I do not think any of the three things you listed are necessary. The skimmer is arguably necessary, but many a tank has been run without one, and without an ATO or ATS.

“Oh! I left out one thing... If I use the interim method, I can move things pretty much on my timetable. But if I try the quick transfer - even if things go well - I'm on a timetable and MUST get Humpty Dumpty put back together quickly. I'll have lost control of of the process and will be a slave to completing it ASAP, rather than moving in the controlled and flexible pace the interim trash can allows.”
- You will be a slave regardless of which option you take. Putting the fish and corals in a trashcan for a week comes with its own risks. That is a lot of time for corals to stink each other or for something important to be missed. I know you are very detail oriented, which I applaud, but there is not that much of a process to moving things over.


I had to move my tank 5 times this story, very unfortunate, and have moved many a tank over the years. The loss of life has always been the lowest when the move was accomplished quickly. Just something to think about. I think your way will probably be fine, but just wanted to provide some counterpoints.

 

[scolley]

Thanks for the the feedback. Really.

You've given me great things to ponder. But it's late here on the east coast.

So let me ponder this a while and get back to you. I'm not married to the interim "tank" idea. Just looking to do the thing that makes the most sense.

Thanks. More later...

 

[scolley]

Thanks for the the feedback. Really.

You've given me great things to ponder. But it's late here on the east coast.

So let me ponder this a while and get back to you. I'm not married to the interim "tank" idea. Just looking to do the thing that makes the most sense.

Thanks. More later...

 

[scolley]

Jason - thanks for the help. I'm sure you would not go to so much trouble if you did not really want to help Thank you. And definitely I respect the fact that you've done this many times, and trust your observations on a correlation between speed of transfer and loss of life.

As I reviewed my possible point-by-point reply, I realized they all fall into a couple of simple categories. So rather that tackle this equipment item by item, I'll deal with the those two broad categories instead.

1. I did not provide you with enough information, leading you - I believe - to some incorrect conclusions. For example, I can't (or won't) remove my current return pump. So doing that up front is not possible - or at least very difficult. The space in my current stand is so constrained that I cannot remove my that pump without draining my sump, disconnecting everything in it, and removing the sump from the stand. I'm just unwilling to do that short of someone holding a gun to my head (or the annual, arduous, pump cleaning ritual). Same thing with the SQWD - I didn't provide enough info. I knew their normal dimension from their website. But mine has threaded PVC hardware that I've bonded to the connections. I can estimate its size, but I can't know without having it in my hands. Heck, I don't even know if it's connection is female or male.
2. Assertions that something is not needed right away appear to presume that it will be able to be provided within a reasonable period of time, with reasonably minimal impact to the overall system. In the case of some things - ATS as one example - such presumptions carry substantial risk. I cannot KNOW the impact of plumbing and supporting it until I DO it. The planned fit is tight enough that a possibility - low but real - is that it will not fit in the stand at all, as currently designed. I will not accept a stand without it, but I cannot know what sort of changes/delay/non-functional system time could come out of a re-design. The risk of it not fitting is on the low side. The impact on the system (and inhabitants) if a redesign is needed to make it fit, possibly high. Another simple example is electronics. I have painstakingly measured them, so it seems reasonable to assume that all will fit just fine, as planned. But plans are always flawed. Right now I'm struggling (space constraints) with fitting two power strips in the electronics shelf as I planned. The details of "why" they don't easily fit are not as important as the point that something that seemed to be a no-brainer, but did not turn out that way. And the impact is that I CANNOT support the system without the requisite number of outlets, and WILL NOT consider this project successful until the outlets and all other electronics are situated in that shelf. There is risk in presuming things can be done as planned, in minimal time, with minimal impact to the rest of the system (and livestock).

But ultimately I think it comes down to priorities. It sounds like your priority has been minimizing loss of livestock. My short term priorities are to establish a system that is technically and esthetically pleasing to me, which provides appropriate conditions for an SPS dominant DT, that has been rockscapred with the end result (the aquascape 2-4 years down the road) in mind. Successfully transferring all of my current crop of corals is secondary to that. In fact, I plan on giving many of them away, as not being suitable for what I hope this tank will be in 2-4 years. Though I do plan on going to great pains to minimize (if not eliminate) loss of life of all my corals, large invertebrates, and fish.

Trash cans aren't as bad as they sound. I've been though the process of tearing the tank down, putting livestock in a trashcan while you repurpose equipment for the new tank before. Granted it was not a reef tank. It was a planted discus tank. But the discus were breeding in the trash can. If you know anything about discus, you know that means careful control of water and other environmental conditions in a trash can must be achievable. By me. And that trash can was up a few months. This one... only a few days.

Granted, for reefs the details are different, but the fact is that demanding conditions can be provided in a trash can.

So as much as I LIKE the idea of finalizing all plumbing first, much if it is not possible and/or impractical. And since there is the possbility of some things just not fitting, which will draw the process out potentially much longer, I'm going to stick with my current plan. Move livestock - get parts - finish stand and tank - and move livestock again.

Thanks for the advice though. I WILL strongly consider TRYING to get that return pump and ATS out though. I could be worth a shot if it minimizes the trash can time. Thanks!



PS - The drain pump is just what it sounds like. It's plumbed to the household drain, and when started, pumps old water out of the sump. Generally that's followed by the saltwater pump (in my heated saltwater reservoir) pumping the same amount back in. It's how I do daily, small, auto water changes.

 

[JasonBJones]

That all sounds good. As I said, just trying to provide some counterpoints.

I think your plan will work fine. You were correct, my focus was on minimizing loss, and with your focus, your plan seems better.

Keep us updated as things progress.

 

[scolley]

Thanks Jason. Will do.

Though a new tank in the for Christmas is iffy. But could happen if all the aforementioned bad things don't happen.

One GOOD thing happened today though...

I've been soaking the dead rock that's destined for the new tank in RO/DI for few weeks. Today I did the first PH4 test on that water to see how badly phosphates were leaching.
The results were almost unreadable. So there is some leaching, but so little as to be a non-issue. Any less would be a ULNS. Pretty happy about that little bit of news.

 

[scolley]

Odds and Ends update

Odds and Ends update

Stand Light Switch
In my 180g, which I went just as whole hog on the planning, I installed a pressure switch on the main stand door. If you open that door, the primary stand light turns on. When I did it I thought it was the bee's knees, so I when I bought the switch I got two, reserving one for the future. And that time is now.

But as I started to install the switch in my little stand I started thinking about how that switch has actually worked out. It's been nice, but not perfect. Most of the time it's great. Open door, stand lights up. But sometimes you want to leave the stand door open for various purposes. And if it's at night, the light is quite conspicuous. So I put a rocker switch on the place were the light plug inserts in the socket. Great! Want the stand door open, but don't want light? Toggle the rocker. But in actual use, what happens more than not is I open the stand - expecting it to light up - and nothing happens. That's when I realize that when I last left the door open, I forget to toggle the rocker back to the on position when I was finished.

So, long story short, I'm not going to put that pressure switch on the door of my new stand. I'll just make sure the switch is in some easy to reach place, and will rely on muscle memory to guide me if it's too dark to see it. If you want the light, turn it on. If you don't turn it off.

Also my ATS runs on a reverse photo period. So the ATS LED in the stand is on all night, every night. It's bright like the sun. So the light will actually be rarely needed. And no switch is simpler. And while I enjoy complicated stuff, it has to be superior- in my mind - than simpler alternatives. And the door switch is one small complication that can be eliminated IMO.


Christmas Mess
Being the holiday season complicates this process for me. The new tanks/stand is going into my family room. And when I build anything, I generally pull out all the parts, all the tools, and leave them handy until I'm finished, and then do a really big clean up. But now, if I don't think that PVC pipe and power tools add to the Christmas mood set with the tree, mistletoe, garlands and so forth, I've got to be better about cleaning up after myself. For each little task it will be; get stuff out, do the task, put stuff away.

Then there's the matter of boxes! Most aquarists must have some place that they keep all their extra miscellaneous - or unused - aquarium stuff. I do, and there's a lot of it. So I keep it in boxes in a big wooden storage/tool shed behind our house. When I've got a project going on I pull the boxes of stuff I'm going to need out of the shed, to the house. These are the boxes I've got in the house right now:

1. Large diameter PVC parts
2. Small diameter PVC parts
3. Cable and wire management parts
4. Tubing connecting parts (like nozzles and such)
5. Small diameter soft tubing
6. Large diameter semi-rigid tubing
7. Electronics
8. Special parts (things that are unique, or do not fall into another box)

NOT adding to the festive mood. So to reduce clutter, I've tried to sift through these boxes and get the parts that I think I'm going to need, and consolidated that down to a couple of small, easily concealed boxes. Everything else can go back to the shed. Again, just time consuming stuff to reduce the Christmas mess.


Heaters
I need a heater for my trash can. I thought I had extras, both the Hydor in-line variety for canister filters, and drop-in's. But I forgot that I gave away Hydors. And one of the big Pentair heater modules on my 180g sprung a leak not long ago. (Don't get me started on how crappy Pentair is... ) And I've been in no hurry to fix it because my efforts are going into the Big Little Nano right now. So my extra drop in's went in that tank. So I'm out of heaters.

I guess I'll contact my local ARKSC reef club buddies and see if anyone has an extra heater. Don't want to buy one just for the trash can. Especially when I'll have a couple of big extras once I fix the leaking Pentair heater unit on my 180.

 

[scolley]

Ready to pull the trigger on transfer...

Ready to pull the trigger on transfer...

Boy, am nervous! I've done most of the things that I planned on doing before beginning to move corals out of my tank, and into the trash can. My plan proved imperfect because a number of things that I planned in advance of moving equipment seems ill advised. Specifically; installing cable support hardware, installing sump light, and plumbing support hooks. Clearly that stuff needs to go in once EXACT locations of plumbing and wires/cables are determined. And that will not be known until it is all removed from the old stand and attached to the new.

I've set up the trashcan with 50% tank water, 50% new salt water. My plan is to start the new tank with 100% new saltwater, and this seems as reasonable transition for the livestock. Especially when you consider that I keep my tank parameters very near NSW, and my ESV salt mix is also very near NSW, once you adjust for salinity targets.

The trash can has three levels of egg crate. The bottom a foot or so off the bottom, with each additional shelf off egg crate about 9" above the one below. This leaves room at the bottom of the trash can for live rock. On the egg crate above that I plan on placing my sand dwelling and low flow corals - acans, trachs, etc. On the level above that all non-sand dwelling LPS. And the level above that SPS. Any softies in my tank will NOT be transitioning to the new tank. In fact I began giving away some pretty special zoas this past weekend - to the ARKSC buddy that lent me the heater that I needed temporarily.

Here's a pic of the egg crate. It's simple egg crate - cut to size - suspended by nylon braided cord, tied to simple clips that attach to the trash can lip. But the pics below show a MAJOR mistake. I assumed that three cords would be sufficient (3 points create a plane in geometry), but it's unstable. The all have been reworked to have 4 CORDS, one in each corner.

I've hooked my spare AC Jr up to a couple of powerheads mounted in the trash can so that I get a little mixup in the flow. My canister filter on the trash can is only giving me 10x turnover. But given that I do not intend to feed while livestock is in the trash can, should be sufficient. Add a few powerheads to that, and I've got flow and filtration. Low light for a day or two, and then light for 2-3 if it takes that long...

So now my big decision is, should I pull the trigger? I'm technically on vacation through the New Year, which leaves me lots of time to work on it. But I would HATE to find out that some portion of my plan was ill conceived and caused my family to endure Christmas with a trashcan full of livestock, a half torn down old tank, and a half built new tank... all in the family room. That's not acceptable. But at the same time, there seems to be no time like the present.

Should I pull the trigger? You're feedback is MOST welcome.

 

[prjct92eh2]

Glad I found this thread! I remember the Kahuna threads on the planted tank forums, and glad to see you haven't lost your attention to detail after becoming an old salt. I will follow closely since I too am looking to setup a SW Nano to add to my planted tanks.

 

[tpallas]

Hey Steve, sounds like a tough choice. Much as I hate to admit it, I'd wait. Who knows what might go wrong when you move everything to the trashcan?? Cool idea with the eggcrate by the way.

 

[scolley]

Glad I found this thread! I remember the Kahuna threads on the planted tank forums, and glad to see you haven't lost your attention to detail after becoming an old salt. I will follow closely since I too am looking to setup a SW Nano to add to my planted tanks.

Woo hoo! Another planted tank friend! Welcome! :wavehand:

Don't know about the old salt though. I'm old. The tank's salty. But not sure if my limited reef experience gets me to "old salt" status yet.

Hey Steve, sounds like a tough choice. Much as I hate to admit it, I'd wait. Who knows what might go wrong when you move everything to the trashcan?? Cool idea with the eggcrate by the way.

As much as it disappoints me, I'm inclined to agree. Though I'm not so worried about the trashcan. I'm more worried about what happens when I tear down the old tank, and putting parts on the new one. All I need is something silly like a piece of tubing (like from the Ca pump) to be too 6" short, and then find I don't have a longer piece. Then I've got a partially assembled mess, until I can get the requisite tubing.

However, I MAY start moving things to the trashcan, and leave the tank running - just empty. That way once I get to the 26th, I can CRANK on swapping parts and setting up the new tank. I know that puts the livestock in the trash can a couple of days more than necessary, but I'm ready to get this show on the road!

Thanks about the egg crate. Every once in a while I get a decent idea. Most of my coral are on disks, not plugs. But I bought a bunch of cheap plugs that I'm going to snap the stems off of. Then went I pry a disk off the live rock to get a coral out of the old tank, I'll just epoxy a stem to the bottom of the disk. And when I move that same coral to the new tank, if there's no hole where I want the coral to go, I'll just snap the stem off again. Easy peazy.

 

[scolley]

Bubble Algae?

Bubble Algae?

This is on the edge of being OT, but since it's a question of transferring livestock from one tank to the next...

This is a poor shot of one of my smallest corals. Above it a little brown bump appeared about 5 days ago. I've been watching it. It's larger now, clearly evident above the coral. Is that bubble algae? I've got none that I can see elsewhere. But that is a high light, high flow spot.

And if it IS bubble algae, should I remove the plug and scrape it off? Or would it be better to remount that coral on a new plug as I transfer it? Which is a more prudent path?

Thanks!

 

[iwishtofish]

Good question - maybe that, or something like lobophora algae (a horror). I'd ID it before putting it in the tank.

 

[ange062]

Looks like it could be bubble algae. In the 2 or 3 times I have seen a bubble come up in my tank I've just used tweezers to remove in the tank with no bad side effects. To be double safe you may just want to remove the plug from the tank then remove the algae, rinse, and replace.

 

[scolley]

Good question - maybe that, or something like lobophora algae (a horror). I'd ID it before putting it in the tank.

It's not that... looked it up. Something different

I took it out. Here's some better pics.

To be double safe you may just want to remove the plug from the tank then remove the algae, rinse, and replace.

I did just that. It came right off. Visually it seemed to leave no trace. But I took a chisel and scraped the top half of the plug down to white concrete, rinsed, and THEN replaced.

When you turn it over, exposing the side that had been attached to the plug, it's hollow. I thought bubble algae all made little independent hollow lobes. This looks like just one piece, and not completely enclosed - since the plug formed its "back".

Well is over now. Clearly the organism is in my tank. And will no doubt move to the new tank. Will just have to keep a watchful eye out. Generally my ATS pulls nutrients out of the water before any algae in the tank can use it. But this little plug was very high in the tank, near the overflow, getting constant high flow. Algae heaven.

 

[scolley]

Placement Plans

Placement Plans

As the big day for begining the tank transfer approaches, I've been mapping out where my existing livestock will go in the new tank. There are a few more things that I don't have now that I plan on adding. But below is the list of those Cnidarians that I'm starting with.

What I'd love to know if anyone would differ with my placement plans. What is shown above is a combination of what I've read, plus my own observations.

As to what Low thru High Flow means on my little tank, I'll have 2 MP10s mounted high up on opposite sides - 25" apart. So high will be good. Not polyp ripping, but strong flow. Low flow will be far from stagnant. In that little tank, with 2 MP10s (even high up) and a 300 gph return, even the lowest spots will be getting flow. There will be visible current everywhere.

As to what Low thru High Light means for my little tank, under my DIY LEDs, I can only estimate from PAR readings I performed months ago. And please keep in mind that more than 1/3 of my light is from Royal Blues, a color that PAR meters are known to under report. So my estimates PAR estimates are definitely on the low side. That said, I expect low light areas to measure around 85 PAR. And I expect high light areas to measure around 425 PAR

Guestimating what that means for actual PAR, accounting for PAR meter under reported PAR of Royal Blues, those numbers could be as high as a low of 125 and a high of 630. Roughly.

Please speak up if you think my placement plans are not solid.

Thanks!

 

[tpallas]

Looks good Steve! What kind of encrusting monti do you have?

 

[scolley]

Thanks Tom. It's a starting point. Some of my corals are good sized (for a little tank), but most are very small. In the the crash a number of months ago (caused by my foolish paly trimming) 95% of my SPS died within hours. So every SPS I have now is from a small frag that I've gotten in that last 1 and 4 months. So they're all small.

Those incrusting Monti's in particular are a Sunset and a Red Hot Chili Pepper. Both from Coral Theory. As far as encrusting corals go, I've got a Meteor Shower Cyphastrea that I like better. A good grower too. :thumbsup:

In fact, an encrusting Monti that died in my crash was a True Superman from Vivid Aquariums, that I loved. I DO want to replace it. However, I want to figure out what the trick is to them first. I've never seen one first hand that approaches the color you see in vendor pics and some RC member posts. Once I figure out the trick, I'm getting one of those.

And on the monti topic, all my monti caps died in my crash too. And I DO intend to get more. I'm leaving space for them. But I'm going to take my time and get nice specimens, ones that will color up well in the particular spots I've got set out for them.

 

[sushi_x]

Nice!:lolspin:

 

[scolley]

Nice!:lolspin:

Thank you very much!