scolley's Big Little Nano – yet another build thread

Steve, the in-depth detail and thought and research going into the builds in your threads is a great resource. Basically, I can save a lot of time by using your example as my starting point, and then adapting that as I feel like.
That's the reason why I go to the trouble. But I appreciate you putting a fine point to it. Your ability to do as you describe is exactly why I do this.

Your question are - IMO - excellent, and worth considered treatment, so will do so now. However, on a personal note before I start...

I see that you hail from London. :thumbsup: The City is my favorite place in the world, and I've been all the way around it a number of times. London though, I've been to no less than 30 times. Probably a lot more if I pulled out the passport to add them all up. And I miss it. WONDERFUL place, and that's coming from someone in easy commuting distance from Manhattan, and has see ALL the competing cities. You live in a great place!
 
To ATS, or not to ATS? That is the question...

To ATS, or not to ATS? That is the question...

I may try to simplify things however, and skip the Algae Scrubber in lieu of chaeto in the refugium.
Whether 'tis nobler to suffer...

I've always said my ATS is nothing more than Chaeto on Steroids. And I believe that.

And while I have not done deep research, my impression - from what I've seen/read - is that no typical tumbling Chaeto setup can come close in effectiveness to a properly tuned ATS. Not if effectiveness is measured by PPM NO3 and P04. HOWEVER, it is a LOT less a PITA to maintain. And silent.

An ATS makes noise, unless you really futz around with it. And every time you clean it, that noise factor changes to some extent or another. And the cleaning is a PITA! Plus, the amount of salt creep it creates is crazy. It really humidifies any enclosure that it is in. BUT, unlike most Chaeto setups, it RIPS nutrients out of the water.

Pick your poison. :)
 
Glass Holes overflow

Glass Holes overflow

Is the Glass Holes overflow quiet enough and unobtrusive enough for your liking?
The overflow is silent. It does begin to make noise if I crank up the turnover rate. But I subscribe to the school of thought that says, "10x or more turnover is the old way of thinking, that does not factor in the benefit of in-tank pumps, like powerheads."

I don't know what my turnover is. But it's less than 10x. And don't need it because my Vortechs keep the water moving. And moderate DT-2-Sump turnover is all that's needed to keep all the sump stuff happy (heaters, skimmer, ATS, ATO, AWC, dosing pumps). So reducing noise by low turnover is a no brainer.

But I do not like the fact that I got the one with the teeth - "Con Dentes" as they call it, I believe. They are quite noticeable, and call attention to themselves. However, I'm convinced it was the right choice IF I only had a single outflow.

At the time I set the tank up, there were too many balls in the air, and deciding to not do a BeanAnimal overflow was an easy decision. However, IF I were doing it all again, and had plenty of time, I'd use a BeanAnimal overflow next time.

However, this setup is quite sufficient. But not perfect.
 
And is there anything else you might do to reduce noise?
Noise comes from the following things...

  1. The overflow IF AND ONLY IF I run it close to the rated flow rates. But I don't, so it is silent.
  2. The ATS. But only sometimes. I find that keeping a bit of algae on the mat reduces the noise. And keeping the water out-flow slot clear of algae helps too. And there are people out there that are putting a piece of Saran Wrap in front of the mat, apparently greatly reducing both noise and splashing. I need to try that, but have not because - frankly - it only makes noise sometimes, and not very much then.
  3. The chiller. It's an Artica, so I gather that among chillers it's considered to be quiet. But it still makes noise. And the pump that runs water to it make noise (a 2nd Eheim). But my SPS are doing SO well, that there's no way I'd unplug the chiller.
  4. The MP10s. They make noise. Why? Because they are Vortech pumps. They ALL make noise. However, I had one that was one of the first 10 made (yes, really) and I replace the dry side on that (at no small expense) and it's MUCH more quiet now.
  5. The LED fans do NOT make noise. Why? Because after spending hundreds on a DIY LED setup, I don't cheap out on the fans. I spend an extra $10 (per fan) and buy totally silent Noctua fans.
I thinks that's about it on noise...
 
Do you have any misgivings about the light spill from a suspended fixture in your living room?
In a word, no.

Here's a pic of the most of the room.
IMG_4046_edited-1.jpg


The tank is in the corner, you barely see it if you are not on the couch, or in front of it. Plus it's offset by the green glare of my 180g planted discus tank. And in the daytime, you can barely see the light spill at all.

But IMO, you should be the judge. In another room, in another setup, to another person, the light spill might be horrible. But as it is, it does not bother me at all.
 
I thought you weren't going to be doing discus again. What changed your mind? I'm going to have to get some cuttings of that Anubias and as much moss as you can spare from you one of these days. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

Oh yeah, the reef is lovely too. :)

Cheers,
Phil
 
And where else would you have rather put the electronics... Or is it really that critical even to separate the electronics from the sump compartment?
That question is so complex in it's implications, I'm not even sure where to begin. Too many variables...

Do you have an ATS? Does the sump area get LOTS of FRESH (not moist/salty) air? Is a decent alternate location even easily available? Do things in your sump splash? Ever?

I CAN say this. A separate compartment was essential for me. I cannot say where I would have put the electronics if I did not build a self contained electronics shelf. The bar next to the tank? Maybe. But it had a lot of wet stuff under there too.

IMO this raises a larger issue that I have not even dealt with in this thread... ALL THE OTHER STUFF that's not in the stand. It's a long list.

In the bar next to the DT/Stand I have:

  • An RO/DI rig
  • An RO/DI water reservoir, with pump inside
  • Three gallon jugs (Alk, Ca, and Mg solutions)
  • Three peristaltic pumps
  • A housewater tap (for the RO/DI)
  • A house drain tap (for draining old water in water auto water changes)
  • A Neptune Systems 4-socket DC4
  • A DIY switch to toggle my ATS from filling with RO/DI to saltwater
But that's not all. Behind the couch in the pic, in front of the tank is a table (obscured in the pic). Under that table is
  • A saltwater mixing tank (roughly 15 gallons)
  • A saltwater storage tank (same size), with heater and pumps to pump water to the sump.
  • A 1/10 HP chiller
So there's a LOT of stuff required to keep that little DT working. It's not remotely all in the stand. So if we are going to ask where to put the electronics, IMO we need to be asking where are we putting all this other stuff too.
 
I thought you weren't going to be doing discus again. What changed your mind? I'm going to have to get some cuttings of that Anubias and as much moss as you can spare from you one of these days. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

Oh yeah, the reef is lovely too. :)

Cheers,
Phil
Hey Phil! Long time no see...

Thanks reef comment. As for the discus, I had decided I'd had it with discus. But when I started looking to see what to do with that big 180 (big for freshwater anyway) I had a hard time envisioning anything - that did not require a lot of maintenance, like an awesome aquascape - that did not have discus. Not in that size tank.

And that's when I realized that my discus frustration was principally with domestic discus. So I got myself a batch of 8 wild Tefe Greens, and school of 75 Rummy Nose Tetras, and could not be happier. Easy, easy, easy fish to keep. Healthy. Happy. Hungry. And I can kinda let the aquascape grow "submerged jungle" like. It looks natural, and takes no more than a couple of hours every couple of months to keep looking presentable. It's a win-win.

Good to hear from you. ;)
 
I'm sure you'll be hearing a lot from me in the nearish future. I was daunted to the point of not wanting to keep the other 300 as a reef. Then I found a 48x24x12 rimless 60gal in storage that will be a perfect reef for me. It's game on again...once the big planted is up and running, that is.

You going to MACNA?
 
MACNA, nope. But IMO 60g is a great size tank for a reef! Wish I had one. Good luck!
 
Thanks again for the insightful and "fact based" information! ;)

London, ah, to be perfectly honest I'm bored with it... and long for the recreational opportunities and relaxed outdoor lifestyle and adventure I left behind on the West Coast of the US. I found the quirks here fascinating and entertaining, but even the novelty of that wears off in time. I can't say that I'd been entirely crazy about the years I spent on the Eastern Seaboard to be honest. Let me know if you're ever in town, and we'll meet up for a warm pint of bitter!

I do greatly admire your system and your technological fetish/expertise, which I'll still have to study further to try to get my head around aspects such as the automated water changes. My own aim is to achieve a simpler and more minimal system and maintenance routine, though I realize I won't achieve quite as healthy and safeguarded of a system by doing so.

Basically at this point, when the project of doing my house finishes, I anticipate a tank upgrade, which is supported by my other as she too despised the curved corners of my current all-in-one. (And my longed for discus tank as well!) Silence is critical, and so I'm undecided whether to build a custom all-in-one or to maybe have an external overflow and sump. Either way, I don't want any equipment visible at all. Here are a few examples of designs I modeled and was initially considering - https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/SxoAalyqFDNvYbIIV6IyypxTzEJGZ8cqOuMdhIiUg5c?feat=directlink

I'm not sure which would be quieter/safer/better, to have like a Tunze 9005 skimmer and rear tank biofilter and chaeto compartments which I could cover to cloak their noise, or to use a sump with the skimmer like yours there and have a stand with an open back/acoustical dampening louver back/or solid back with computer fans. If your overflow makes noise, then perhaps I'd aim for a much wider overflow, or a beananimal.

I don't wish to futz around with things, so either way I guess I'd live with chaeto rather than an ATS. In my current tank I actually used a bottom layer of mineralized topsoil (baked/boiled), mixed with iron-rich clay, and hand-me-down miracle mud. I have limited algae growth, and now that I've planted seagrass (Star Grass and Shoal Grass), I'm waiting to see if it takes off and suppresses algae further through allelopathy. If I had thick seagrass growth in a refugium, which is non-limited due to being planted in soil, then that and mangroves could perhaps be effective at mopping up phosphates and nitrates.

I guess I'd use Tunze powerheads tucked away in the rockwork rather than MP10's, due to the noise factor. Though I wonder if that's a Faustian trade-off, if in-tank powerheads cause additional heat which requires the chiller to kick on often... How much of the time is your chiller running by the way? And I bought Vantec Stealth fans from RapidLED to replace my current ones, though haven't gotten around to that yet. Are the Nocturna quieter still?

For lighting, I'm thinking of either building one or two long LED light cannons, so the source is tucked far enough up inside a mirrored tube with an angled cut to the front, that you wouldn't be getting light spill or seeing any source, or having DIY aluminum section bars of LED's resting on the tank rim. To allow for cooling of the tank and lights but prevent light spill, if I do the LED bars on top of the tank, then I'd cover the entire tank with a non-vision air transfer grille which would allow heat and humidity but not light or fish to escape. I could add some fans mounted atop that to increase the airflow as well. I'll totally copy your light mix however, but maybe include a remote controlled RGB strip around the perimeter of the tank in case I do want a tiny bit of green and red evenly distributed but tune-able.

A rear tank sump would allow me to have a chiller, 30 gallon water change/mixing barrel, and 5 gallon auto-top off in the stand, and thus a relatively self-contained complete tank system and maintenance package. I'd need a canister filter still to run water through the chiller, which could house my carbon and GFO, unless I found a drop-in-chiller instead. I'd include an overflow drain from the tank, so to do water changes I could just flip a pump switch and pump the water from the barrel to overflow my tank. Otherwise I'd need quite a big stand to fit all that and a sump in the stand. I'm currently supplementing mostly just by mixing a saturated kalk/vinegar solution into my top-off water, and adding additional manually if necessary.

But a regular sump would increase the total water surface area, and hopefully thus increase evaporation and oxygenation. I'd like to do all that I can to prevent heat build-up, to try to avoid having a chiller running. And I guess this factor might lend itself to using an external pump and sump rather than a rear tank sump with submersible pump? Or I could do a mini-fridge hack instead of a chiller, which might be quieter and less expensive.

If I suspect that type of a sump set-up might be audible still, I might even set my tank up with just a full width rear overflow and pipe out to another room where I could set up all my equipment, so then it'd be just a pipe in and pipe out and I'd skip the powerheads even. It wouldn't be easy to arrange and build it that way however.

Going without Vortech MP's would mean that I wasn't able to use their battery backup, which leaves me in a quandary about my other options, being that a UPS dies so quickly. I suppose buying an actual generator is cheaper than buying an MP10 however! Maybe I need a fuel cell... And I'm not yet convinced about a tank controller.

Yikes, a very wordy reply, which hopefully isn't off-topic, but just a slightly different take to try and achieve much the same goals. These topics do necessarily involve a lot of detail however!...
 
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Wow. That may be the longest single post I've ever seen. And off topic.

So you might want to start a thread for that. Or send me a PM. I'm happy to help. But not in this thread. Thanks. :)
 
Your room will look better if your reef tank is the same size as your fw plant tank. he he...
LOL. That big tank is reef drilled. But my better half killed the idea of converting.

I wanted to - and intended to - but now I'm glad I didn't do it. Years ago I had a 75g and it was great. Not too small. Not to big. Work, but not too much work. And if I go to a larger reef someday, I think a 75g "walk around" rimless cube would be awesome. ;) The 180 would look better. But I'm not up for all that work.
 
In a word, no.

Here's a pic of the most of the room.
IMG_4046_edited-1.jpg


The tank is in the corner, you barely see it if you are not on the couch, or in front of it. Plus it's offset by the green glare of my 180g planted discus tank. And in the daytime, you can barely see the light spill at all.

But IMO, you should be the judge. In another room, in another setup, to another person, the light spill might be horrible. But as it is, it does not bother me at all.

Almost looks like you have another planted tank in the other room behind the 180.
 
Almost looks like you have another planted tank in the other room behind the 180.
What you are seeing are large anubias leaves growing out of the top of the tank. Anubias are not true aquatic plants, in that they are happy to live outside of water too. And these big boys grow right out the top.

I planned it that way. It's just lots more greenery to soak up liquid excretion from the discus. And that keeps algae down... HN4 being a trigger for algae to start growing. So I don't to clean that tank more than a couple of times a year. Plus IMO it looks kinda cool too. :)
 
Care to share further specs about your lights? You're running 39 LED's in your hood. Any idea as to the total wattage there? What sort of PAR you're getting at the middle and bottom? And how high you have them turned up?
 
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