severe water electrocution HELP!
- Thread starter haysanatar
- Start date
you can have either or. same function, the only reason people go with gfi outlets rather than gfi breaker is because gfi breakers are much more expensive.
I don't want to be too picky, but this is an important safety topic. A GFCI DOES "interrupt" the current when it is triggered, but it has nothing to do with how MUCH current is flowing. That is the job of the main breaker in the panel (of course, it is only designed to protect the WIRING, not YOU).
The operation of a GFCI is actually really simple. Basically, it measures the current flowing through the hot terminal AND the current flowing through the neutral terminal. These values are fed to an analog comparator. If these current flows differ by a predetermined value (milliamp range), the comparator triggers and the device opens (aka: "interrupts") the current flow on the hot (and possibly the neutral) circuit to stop the current flow. Because it uses electronic means to test and interrupt the current flow, it is VERY fast and it shuts down well before you are harmed.
There is on other common misunderstanding on GFCIs: they do NOT require a ground circuit to operate! In fact, NEC recommends installing GFCIs in older houses built without grounded outlets that can't easily be upgraded (remember, ground is ONLY a safety circuit, nothing more). Anything that causes the amount of current flowing between the hot and the neutral terminals to be different enough will cause the GFCI to trip, so they are an acceptable replacement for a safety ground line.
For example, your submersible pump has failed insulation and the windings are in contact with the water. There is 300mA of current flowing into the pump and 300mA of current flowing out of the pump, but the water has been brought up to "hot" potential. The GFCI does not trip at this point, as the currents are still in balance! Now, you come along and reach into the tank to right a snail that your Queen Angle has pulled off the glass (AGAIN!). You are bare foot and standing on a slightly conductive surface, so when your fingers touch the water, 50mA of current starts to flow through you and you get a good tingle!
Before you can even THINK about pulling your hand back (before you even realize there is a problem actually), the GFCI measures 300mA at the hot terminal going INTO the pump, but only measures 250mA coming back FROM the pump and BAM! It trips and interrupts the current flow. It does this in microseconds, possibly saving your life in the process. Good little devices!
And, just to be complete, after you fix your problems use the excellent advice above, INSTALL GFCIs!!!!! If you had to be pulled out of the tank, you came WAY TOO CLOSE to being another statistic!
REEFVIEWER
New member
The gfci outlet saved my life twice. I was messing with my sump one day, and the lamp fell into the sump. My tank system shut down immediately. The second time was the lighting for the main tank; I lifted one end of the T5 light up to remove a big rock from my tank while the other end with the cord dipped into the tank, and again the system shuts down. Both times my hand was in the water. I used the GFCI outlet to quickly troubleshoot a bad unit now. Plug in one unit at a time; the unit that tripped the GFCI outlet is a bad unit.
kcress
New member
You do not need both a GFI breaker and a GFI outlet. I prefer outlets.
As explained, a GFI outlet couldn't care less about the amount of current. Only that some is not returning via the neutral where it's supposed to be returning.
You should have NO OUTLETS near grounded metal, dirt, metal appliances, or plumbing, on your property that are not GFI protected. Here was a perfect case of "near water".
If there had been a GFI in this case haysanatar would've felt the tiniest 'jingle' before the power was automatically disconnected by the GFI outlet.
If you are installing GFIs ONLY USE REPUTABLE AMERICAN brands. I recently installed a knock-off one and two days later it turned into a buzzer and caught fire! Use Hubbel or Leviton or any other name brand you recognize. DO NOT use something like "Kingbrand" or some other junk.
Furthermore DO NOT use a ground probe. Those are the work of the devil and are nothing more than a misguided fool's errand with tons of down side and ZERO 0, NO, upside - except to the unwitting fools or devious scammers selling them.
In this case a ground probe could lead to instant death of all life in the tank, possibly destruction of the tank, home, and alternatively a burned down house. I've covered how bad ground probes are in several other threads in RC already.
As explained, a GFI outlet couldn't care less about the amount of current. Only that some is not returning via the neutral where it's supposed to be returning.
You should have NO OUTLETS near grounded metal, dirt, metal appliances, or plumbing, on your property that are not GFI protected. Here was a perfect case of "near water".
If there had been a GFI in this case haysanatar would've felt the tiniest 'jingle' before the power was automatically disconnected by the GFI outlet.
If you are installing GFIs ONLY USE REPUTABLE AMERICAN brands. I recently installed a knock-off one and two days later it turned into a buzzer and caught fire! Use Hubbel or Leviton or any other name brand you recognize. DO NOT use something like "Kingbrand" or some other junk.
Furthermore DO NOT use a ground probe. Those are the work of the devil and are nothing more than a misguided fool's errand with tons of down side and ZERO 0, NO, upside - except to the unwitting fools or devious scammers selling them.
In this case a ground probe could lead to instant death of all life in the tank, possibly destruction of the tank, home, and alternatively a burned down house. I've covered how bad ground probes are in several other threads in RC already.
L8ndeb
Registered Reef Keeper
Thank you Roamer for explaining it better than I. I was always under the impression that it measured the voltage going to the ground terminal. It is MUCH more logical for it to measure between the neutral and hot, just for, as you stated, an instance where there is no ground. I am now more educated!
haysanatar
New member
kcress you are my hero. Thank you so much for spending so much time going into detail on how to fix it..
This time was bad... but not my worst shock.
I had a 400 watt light bulb fall in my acrylic tank while standing barefoot on a slightly damp floor. I was a good arms deep in the water when it happened. It was definitely one of those by the grace of god moments. I had pretty good muscle damage and had no movement of it for... about a week or so. It just kind of dangled around. This time it was the same arm it just feels heavy so I'll live.
I'm getting a new outlet tomorrow.
it kills me i had a sudden coral war and several fish decide to knock over EVERYTHING right afterwards.
This time was bad... but not my worst shock.
I had a 400 watt light bulb fall in my acrylic tank while standing barefoot on a slightly damp floor. I was a good arms deep in the water when it happened. It was definitely one of those by the grace of god moments. I had pretty good muscle damage and had no movement of it for... about a week or so. It just kind of dangled around. This time it was the same arm it just feels heavy so I'll live.
I'm getting a new outlet tomorrow.
it kills me i had a sudden coral war and several fish decide to knock over EVERYTHING right afterwards.
uncleof6
Active member
You don't piggy back GFCIs i.e. a GFCI breaker, with a GFCI outlet on that circuit. They will interfere with each other. One or the other, is all that is necessary.
mussel and hate
New member
Wow, I must have had the thread open for hours before replying. My suggestions seem a little bit silly coming right after kcress...
First of all kudos to kcress for giving such a detailed description and to clarify that this was not an electrocution, which is commonly confused. Another common mistake is people not knowing the difference between voltage and current. I beleive many posts here have explained and clarified that a gfci has to do with current and not voltage. Also it was pointed out that a grounding probe is a very bad idea to install in conjunction with a gfci because if there is any leakage into the tank, the current would be grounded and a difference of current would be seen by the gfci and the circuit wouldd be tripped. This could happen when you are not home, or anybody not be home and be able to fix the problem. The tank could go unnoticed and the inhabitants could start to die off and you could loose thousands on livestock depending on what type of tank you have. So stay away from grounding probes. You gfci will not trip even if the potentional for leakage exists. It will trip when a path to ground is present and that will be you. So your there to start troubleshooting the problem when it arises.
DO NOT piggy back a gfi breaker with a gfci outlet, as mentioned earlier they will interfer with each other. I prefer outlets because you can control what is downstream from the gfci outlet. If you put the gfi at the breaker than the whole circuit is subject to interuption. Depending on the circuit, you could be shutting of the power to that whole circuit. So lets say your refrigerator is on that circuit or fine electronics like a computer or nice TV, then when that breaker trips so does the power to those appliances on that circuit. If you have a dedicated outlet that is for the tank then the power will only go off to the tank. The outlet can be only protecting that outlet or it can protect all oulets downstream of the outlet. The directions to this idea or on the box of the gfci outlet.
Me personally I installed 2 dedicated gfci outlets for my tank. They are both 20 amp circuits and only feed to my tank. I made sure that the power heads in my tank are split on each circuit. So for some reason if one circuit is tripped by the gfci the other circuit still has a power head running in the tank to circulate water. If your really anal and have two return lines then having two return pumps, each feeding a return line and on seperated circuits is a good backup plan for possible faulty, or actual gfci activations. This way if a circuit is interupted by the gfci a power head is still circulating the water in the tank and a return pump is still circulating water through the sump.
Also installing an outdoor waterproof cover over the outlet is a great idea with obviously a drip loop on the device being plugged into the receptical. Its also a good idea to mount power strips or extension cord connection up off the ground in case of water leakage and penetration of the connection. Hope this helps, and good luck.
P.S. I hope this thread becomes a sticky, there is some very good information provided by individuals here and such information should be used when planning a tank build. I beleive in giving people the correct information as early as possible so that they can enjoy this wonderful hobby instead of reacting to bad experiences and getting discouraged.
DO NOT piggy back a gfi breaker with a gfci outlet, as mentioned earlier they will interfer with each other. I prefer outlets because you can control what is downstream from the gfci outlet. If you put the gfi at the breaker than the whole circuit is subject to interuption. Depending on the circuit, you could be shutting of the power to that whole circuit. So lets say your refrigerator is on that circuit or fine electronics like a computer or nice TV, then when that breaker trips so does the power to those appliances on that circuit. If you have a dedicated outlet that is for the tank then the power will only go off to the tank. The outlet can be only protecting that outlet or it can protect all oulets downstream of the outlet. The directions to this idea or on the box of the gfci outlet.
Me personally I installed 2 dedicated gfci outlets for my tank. They are both 20 amp circuits and only feed to my tank. I made sure that the power heads in my tank are split on each circuit. So for some reason if one circuit is tripped by the gfci the other circuit still has a power head running in the tank to circulate water. If your really anal and have two return lines then having two return pumps, each feeding a return line and on seperated circuits is a good backup plan for possible faulty, or actual gfci activations. This way if a circuit is interupted by the gfci a power head is still circulating the water in the tank and a return pump is still circulating water through the sump.
Also installing an outdoor waterproof cover over the outlet is a great idea with obviously a drip loop on the device being plugged into the receptical. Its also a good idea to mount power strips or extension cord connection up off the ground in case of water leakage and penetration of the connection. Hope this helps, and good luck.
P.S. I hope this thread becomes a sticky, there is some very good information provided by individuals here and such information should be used when planning a tank build. I beleive in giving people the correct information as early as possible so that they can enjoy this wonderful hobby instead of reacting to bad experiences and getting discouraged.
haysanatar
New member
well i'm pretty certain my breaker isn't gfci.. cause it sure didn't trip. I'll certainly feel safer when that outlet it replaced.
so my chances of getting shocked are alot closer to zero with the gfci right?
so my chances of getting shocked are alot closer to zero with the gfci right?
kcress
New member
Haysan; It's very likely your tank inhabitants went crazy right after your shock because they also got shocked at the same time you did.
They would not feel anything with electrified water because the whole tank is equipotential until something allows a current path out of the tank. A ground probe would cause them to be continually shocked endlessly. In your case you became the path and that caused a current to then flow thru the tank and by association thru your tank inhabitants. They essentially thought the neighbors had lobbed a grenade over the DMZ into their camps. All of them thought that and they probably all started trying to leave via the now ****ed off neighbors land or outright tried to retaliate. That's why they all went crazy.
They would not feel anything with electrified water because the whole tank is equipotential until something allows a current path out of the tank. A ground probe would cause them to be continually shocked endlessly. In your case you became the path and that caused a current to then flow thru the tank and by association thru your tank inhabitants. They essentially thought the neighbors had lobbed a grenade over the DMZ into their camps. All of them thought that and they probably all started trying to leave via the now ****ed off neighbors land or outright tried to retaliate. That's why they all went crazy.
fishgate
Active member
+1 to testing them. I had one during a monsoon that fed an outdoor receptacle start to buzz. It never tripped. Buzzing = heat buildup and eventual fire. I shut off the circuit in the panel and replaced the outlet (after the monsoon was over). Now I regularly test them.
Most breakers have a overcurrent and instantaneous element built into the breaker. What that means is if the current draw spikes really really high, way past the rating of the circuit the instantaneous element will kick in and trip the breaker. On the other hand if the circuit is loaded to max and another device is added to the mix and the total current draw is near or climbing over what the breaker is rated for then the overcurrent element should kick in and trip the breaker. The problem with why the breaker did not trip is because with you providing a path to ground plus your equipment did not exceed the circuits capabilities
you need less than .5 of an amp to get electrocuted. Potentially. So in your situation the breaker should not have tripped and it did not.
you need less than .5 of an amp to get electrocuted. Potentially. So in your situation the breaker should not have tripped and it did not.
john rochon
New member
As mentioned, do NOT use a grounding probe. They only give the ciruit/short a constant path.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
In the scheme of things... this sounds trivial, but you can't get "electrocuted again" it can only happen once. That is, if you had been "electrocuted" you would not be posting here as "electrocution" is death by electricity.
You have been shocked my friend, not electrocuted.
LobsterOfJustice
Recovering Detritophobe
How do you all feel about the plug-in GFCI receptacles instead of the hard wired outlets? I rent my place so I use these. I have still gotten a tingle while using these.
This is what I use:
http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical...splay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051
This is what I use:
http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical...splay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Not really:
The GFCI monitors current flowing in on the HOT and out on the NEUTRAL if it reads a differnece in that current, then it trips. The GFCI knows nothing about GROUND and could care less where the current "leaks" to, it just cares that it leaked somwhere. That somewhere could be ground, another circuits hot or neutral conductor, etc.
A GFCI WILL NOT protect you if YOU ARE THE LOAD. That is, if you grab the HOT WIRE with one hand and the NEUTRAL WIRE with the other. You become the load (the light bulb if you will) and the GFCI is happy becuase the current flow in equals the currnet flowing out.
(side note: lets call it a NEUTRAL not a RETURN, as the common nomenclature here in the US is NEUTRAL)
